Video: The Business of Spirituality: On Money, Branding, and Other Taboos

March 5, 2019

"Business" is a taboo topic in divinity school but anyone who wants to change the world needs to understand how to think like an entrepreneur. Leading experts on social and wellness entrepreneurship, innovative leadership, and the intersection of money and spirituality share their stories and wisdom in a panel discussion. 


KASSI UNDERWOOD: So welcome, welcome. My name is Kassi Underwood, and I am Harvard's meditation advisor, and also will graduate in May with a masters of divinity. This is the business of spirituality, a panel on money branding and other taboos. So when you leave here tonight, we hope that you will feel comfortable or at least less tortured by making good money for your spiritual work and to have concrete action steps that you can take to bring in cash flow that will support your life and your mission. 
So we're going to spend some time in conversation up here, and then the rest of the time we'll take your questions, and afterward everyone will be here to get your selfies going and to sign your books and anything you want to do up here, one on one. So there are some incredible women here with me tonight, and there's one who's not-- yeah. Yeah. 
And we're missing Miki Agrawal. She is on the way. Her train was delayed. It was like the only train that was delayed of course. And she's getting here as soon as she can, and she'll be here in about 15 minutes. But every single woman on this panel has inspired me deeply over the years and made a measurable impact on my life and my work. And I just want to thank you all for your work and for coming all the way to Harvard to talk to all of us. So we have Rha Goddess. Yes. 
Rha Goddess is the entrepreneurial soul coach behind hundreds of breakthrough change makers, cultural visionaries, and social entrepreneurs. From multiple New York Times best sellers to multi-million dollar social enterprises, Rha's unique methodology has empowered a new generation of conscious entrepreneurs to stay true, get paid, and do good. From the onset of her more than 30 year career as a cultural innovator, social impact strategist, and creative change agent, Rha has drawn on the power of creativity, culture, and community to move hearts, minds, and policy. 
Rha's work has focused on issues of racial justice and equality, electoral politics, offender aid and restoration, mental health and youth, and women's empowerment. In 2008 she received the National Museum of Voting Rights Prestigious Freedom Flame Award, and in 2009 she was awarded the Herb Alpert Hedgebook prize. Later that year, the White House invited her to participate as part of a special delegation of nationally recognized cultural change agents in a national dialogue on civic participation. Also in 2009, Rha was invited to serve as a United States cultural envoy to Rwanda. 
As a creative change agent, her work has earned critical acclaim from international media such as Time Magazine, Interview, Essence, Variety, and the Chicago Tribune, among others. In 2014, Rha was chosen as a top 10 game changer by Muses and Visionary Magazine. And in 2017, Rha was chosen as one of the 50 women founders to watch by Essence Magazine. Additional awards and honors include Meet the Composer, the NPN Creative Fund, a semifinalist for Do Some Things Brooke Award, and a two time semifinalist for Leadership for a Changing World, nominated by Eve Ensler. 
As CEO of Move the Crowd, Rha is galvanizing a movement of 1 million entrepreneurs dedicated to reimagining work as a vehicle for creative expression, financial freedom, and societal transformation. That is Rha Goddess, everybody. 
Guru Jagat. Guru Jagat is the founder of RA MA Institute for Applied Yoga, Science, and Technology, a Kundalini Yoga School with locations in Venice, California; Majorca, Spain; and New York City; and the author of the bestselling book, Invinsible Living-- The Power of Yoga, the Energy of Breath, and Other Tools for a Radiant Life. Guru Jagat first met Yogi Bhajan in 2002, and that encounter crystallized her prior spiritual explorations and launched her on the path of a Kundalini yoga teacher. 
As the Piscean and patriarchal energies fade into history, Guru Jagat has emerged as a leading global figure helping to create, delineate, and refine the new feminine matriarchal archetype. In 2017, Guru Jagat created the Aquarian Women's Leadership Society, which has members in over 20 countries. Guru Jagat is also the founder and CEO of RA MA TV, RA MA Records, and RA MA Foundation. Guru Jagat, everyone. 
Kate Northrup. As an entrepreneur, a best selling author and mother, Kate Northrup supports ambitious, motivated, and successful women to light up the world without burning themselves out in the process. Committed to empowering women entrepreneurs to create their most successful businesses while navigating motherhood, Kate is the founder and CEO of Origin Collective, a monthly membership site where women all over the world gather to achieve more while doing less. 
Her first book, Money A Love Story, has been published in five languages. Kate's work has been featured by the Today Show, Yahoo! Finance, Women's Health, Glamour, and the Huffington Post, and she's spoken to audiences of thousands with Hay House, Wanderlust, USANA Health Sciences, and more. 
Kate lives with her husband and business partner, Mike, and their daughters Penelope and Ruby in Maine. Find out more and receive your free copy of the five simple and effective ways to get the results you want in your business at Kate's new book, Do Less, Do Less, a revolutionary approach to time and energy management, will be released on April 2. Kate Northrup. 
And once again my name is Kassi Underwood. I am a spiritual teacher, speaker, and author. I founded a practice that teaches people how to feel peaceful and powerful no matter what's going on around them. I'm also the author of the bestselling memoir, May Cause Love, published by HarperOne HarperCollins. And I am Harvard's first ever meditation advisor, serving the student body and private sessions and group experiences. 
As founder of a signature spiritual practice, I work with private clients and create both online and in-person courses to release fear. My most recent course was called Revolution After Abortion, the first of its kind leading women and non-binary people to community, confidence, and peace of mind. As a public speaker, I've traveled the country to present no bullshit spiritual teachings. Everywhere from the University of California at Berkeley and New York City's Lincoln Center, to churches in Texas and live television audiences on MSNBC. So that's me. 
So we're going to start with questions about the inner tensions around money and business and spirituality, and then we'll talk about some brass tacks and concrete actions that you can take out of here to bring in to your life and your business. How does that sound? Yeah? All right. 
So we'll start with that inner work. So let's begin by giving everybody a sense of your personal stories with money and business. Can you just share a little bit about your backgrounds? And don't leave out the struggle. Like, we want to hear the struggle, if there was a struggle with money and business. And anybody can start. 
GURU JAGAT: Every time he questions us they all-- 
OK, struggle. Let's make this dramatic. So I was raised by a single mother who is a very hard worker, and taught me a lot about work ethic. I think work ethic gets you everywhere. And I was saying this last night, I don't feel like I have to say this as much in Boston and in New England-- there's some hard working going on around here, and I appreciate it. --and at Harvard. But we're in California a lot and people think a 24 hour work week is full time. And so we have kind of remind them. 
But I do feel work ethic gets you everywhere, and certainly that was installed, and we were talking about this as well. The most successful people no matter in what industry or sector, fame, riches, whatever the things people think that they want-- even though once you get them, it's a whole other story. --every one of them has that one quality, which is hardcore work ethos. 
So I was taught that at an early age. And then just struggle, struggle, struggle. I mean, if you're an entrepreneur, you do it and you're up all night thinking about how to pay the rent. I mean welcome to the party, and that goes for about 20 years and you lose your youth. You've traded your youth for some sort of dream of entrepreneurialism. 
But my teacher, Yogi Bhajan, says that the business and money are some of the quickest ways, including romantic relationship, to become conscious. And they're the biggest spiritual practices, and they will offer you the biggest spiritual test. So he particularly said money and sex, they're the heaviest things on the planet. So if you can get conscious in money and sex, you're going to be able to maneuver a lot less complex situations with grace. 
Yeah. I mean when I started my kind of more brick and mortar aspect of my business, it's like having a kid. You don't know until you know, and then you have the amnesia of you think you should have another one. So the hormones start to kick back in. And what's happening again? We're thinking about opening another I can't believe it. We're thinking about opening another studio. I'm like, what am I doing? I hear myself talk about it. So it's a mental disorder entrepreneurialism. 
So I'd like to admit that. But that's kind of the story. It's a constant struggle. I mean, I think that if you're building something and you think it's going to be-- whether it's a romantic relationship or any brand or whatever. --you think it's going to be less than 20 years of hard core work, then you're fooling yourself. 
RHA GODDESS: Well, on that note. 
Yeah. So for me, I like to describe myself as a change of life baby, born into the intersection of civil rights and hip hop. Parents were born in the 1920s and they had me in their 40s. So it was a certain kind of sensibility that I have the privilege of carrying because of that intersection. And certainly civil rights is always about how we open the door for everything that comes behind us, and the sensibility of hip hop is from nothing comes everything. And I think that there's something about those two sort of pillars and mantras that have very much shaped my entrepreneurial journey. 
I jokingly say that I signed up for the poverty trifecta. It was like artistic, check, poor; activist, check, poor; woman of God or spirit, oh, check, poor; poor, poor, and poor again. And so having to figure out how to hold the vibration of spirit and community and creativity while also navigating the material world has absolutely for me been a transformational spirit. It's like been a journey of God, like truly, and a journey absolutely of consciousness. 
And it got very real for me about 15 years ago when I returned from doing Envoy work and couldn't pay the rent, and didn't have the energy to go out and hustle and figure it out. And that was the beginning of my awakening around this other aspect of resource and source. And I think a lot of our conditioning is in that struggle, how to have both. And so I know we're going to go there more in the conversation tonight. But I will say to you that, on my knees very humbly, learning all of the different ways that spirit and source manifests itself, which includes money. So I look forward to talking more about that. 
GURU JAGAT: I'm sorry, did you say you were born in the 1940s? 
RHA GODDESS: So I said my parents had me in their 40s. 
My parents had me in their 40s. 
GURU JAGAT: What is going on? 
RHA GODDESS: But I will tell you, I've been here for a little while. Mama been here for a little while. Good living, it's like spirit. When you surrender your life to God, amazing things happen. 
KATE NORTHRUP: My story is a little different in that my business isn't as much like I didn't start so much in the spiritual world, except for the fact that I was raised to believe that everything is God. Everything is spirit. I hope it's OK to say this. From a very young age, I loved making money and I didn't see it as separate ever. 
So I had various and sundry issues getting into a bunch of credit card debt and being super intertwined with my mother and not dealing with that until way later in life than maybe I should have, going into business partnerships blindly. But the big piece for me has been noticing how I can and how other people can as well numb out around money and numb out around paying attention and being in the present moment. And the way that we deal with our money is very similar often to the way we deal with our time, which is why I'm talking a lot about time these days. Just as a mom, my time just got sucked right up. I was like, wow, this is really a profound shift. 
And so one of the things that's so important and that I'm working on everyday with myself is, how can I not keep myself small through rushing and checking out of the present moment? How can I not keep myself small from overspending or being unconscious? Because financial drama is a really great distraction from purpose and we cannot show up for the world the way we need to when we can't figure out how to pay the rent. 
Now, sometimes necessity is a beautiful invent. What is that phrase? Thank you. Thank you. Necessity is the mother of all invention. So I am like that pressure can be very powerful and I don't think anyone is to blame for their financial drama, however we all can really take that moment to realize-- 
OK. There was a great book that I didn't read, but the title was so brilliant. And I'll never forget it. It was, How Can I Change the World If I Can't Even Find My Keys? And it was a book about personal organization. However, I think it really applies to this conversation tonight around spirituality and work in the world, is how can we change the world if we can't pay the rent. And so it's really about filling that cup first, which wasn't really my story. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: It was really good to hear. OK. So, very powerful. I have a lot of things coming to mind. I want to understand because there was a moment before you opened a business, and then a moment where you're like I should open up a business or something of that nature, and then you open up a business. Miki's here, everybody. Yeah. Woo. 
Yay. OK. Yes. Miki's train was delayed. We already told everybody. Yay, you're here. Yes, I'm ready to rock. OK. So I'll read Miki's bio after this question. So what was the moment when you knew it was time to open up a business? 
MIKI AGRAWAL: I have always had a business, since I was like seven. 
RHA GODDESS: It's interesting because I think for me it was owning that I was in business, which was different. I think in that come to Jesus moment when I was on my knees 15 years ago, owning the fact that I was in business, but I was operating like I wasn't. So I would say that that was for me that moment where I was like whoa, OK, this is not working. This is a business and the business model is not working. We got to do something about that. 
GURU JAGAT: I was the president of the Babysitters Club. 
If you think that it's a good idea to create something and then create some sort of-- Yogi Bhajan says in order to be in profit, you have to be pro and fit. And that's a journey. You have to be pro. You have to treat yourself and treat others and your clients or whatever in a professional way, which there's a good book out, which I also didn't read, I think it's called Going Pro or something. Did anybody read it? Yes, Turning Pro. Yeah, so it's a good concept. But I was always doing something that had a creative impact, but the profit thing is an interesting part of that impact. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: When did you know? 
MIKI AGRAWAL: When did I know? I mean, the first thing is I'm just very unemployable, and I'm just like, you're not my dad. Don't tell me what to do. So that was a Indian father situation that was hard to negotiate. 
But I would say outside of that, it was just by just seeing problems in the world. I think my father came to this country with $5.00 in his pocket from India, and my mom came to this country barely speaking English from Japan. And they met, they fell in love, and against their parents wishes they chose to marry each other, which was pretty disruptive in and of itself in 1974. 
And when our family moved to Montreal, they knew nobody. They had no family. They had no friends. They had no relatives. They had nobody, and they just had each other. And they just never complained about anything in the world. They just basically if there was a problem, they solved it. 
When I say us, my twin sister, Rada. We always talk in we's. They're like, who's we? It's me and my sister, and our third sister. We just always watched our parents solve problems. And there was no gifted children summer camp growing up, and they started the gifted children summer camp when my mom's like barely speaking English. And my parents believed that electronics was the future in like the late '80s and early '90s, and they were like no kids learning electronics. And so they created this school program for kids called Tomorrow's Professionals that taught kids about electronics. And my mom was like the president of Tomorrow's Professionals. 
And so I just learned from them. Like if there is a problem, don't complain about it. Solve it. Go make something. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: Amazing. So I bet you guys want to know more about Miki, if you don't already know about Miki. So I'm going to read your bio now. Miki Agrawal was named 2018 Fast Company's Most Creative People, 2017 Young Global Leader by World Economic Forum, Social Entrepreneur of the Year by World Technology Summit, and was one of Inked Magazine's most impressive women entrepreneurs of 2016. 
She co-founded Thinx, a high tech period proof underwear brand, and led the company as CEO to a valuation of over $150 million, and to fast company's most creative companies of 2017, all while helping tens of millions of women period better. She most recently founded Tushy, a company that is revolutionizing the American toilet category with a modern, affordable, designer bidet attachment, that both upgrades human health and hygiene, as well as the environment from wasteful toilet paper consumption. 
She and her team are also helping fight the global sanitation crisis by bringing clean latrines to underserved communities in India through their partnership with Samagra. SNL just covered Tushy after its subway campaign was banned. She is also the founder of the acclaimed farm to table alternative pizza concept called Wild, with three locations in New York City, one in Guatemala, and more on the way. 
Additionally, HarperCollins published her first book entitled, Do Cool Shit on entrepreneurship and lifestyle design, and Hay House published her second book Disrupt-Her on January 29, 2019. Miki Agrawal. Yeah. 
MIKI AGRAWAL: It was the trains. Yeah, this book just came out. It's very exciting. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: Very exciting, yes. So one of my greatest challenges as a spiritual entrepreneur has been charging the appropriate amount of money, like more than zero dollars per hour for my work. That would reflect the value of my work while simultaneously supporting my business growth at the rate that I need and want it to go. So how do you know how much to charge and how much is appropriate to charge? 
MIKI AGRAWAL: Yeah, trial and error. You kind of just figure out like, is there any kind of competitive product that's similar to yours? Our products are different, but anything that's kind of similar, what are they charging and what are they offering for what they're charging? Because it's like if you offer a better product, for example, there are other bidet attachments on the market that are cheaper, but they're just ugly and weird looking and not designer. And so would people spend $69 on a modern bidet product that easily could fund your toilet? Probably, actually yes, compared to the Japanese toilet, which cost thousands of dollars. 
So compared to what's on the market, our product is super affordable compared to other kind of products like it. There are cheaper, but you kind of know quality when you see it and you often choose that if it's not that much more expensive. 
RHA GODDESS: I think I'd go there in like, what do you invest in what you create and how do you develop a relationship with the power and the love that you invest in what it is that you create whatever that is? So many, many years when I'm starting out to sort of take responsibility, I really looked at like, what do I infuse in workshops? What do I infuse in keynotes? What do I infuse in the coaching work that we do? What all goes into that? And what do I deliver for the people that I'm serving? And I really want to encourage because I would say often in a spiritual context, we don't always stay present to the impact that we have on people. 
So if you get your son or your daughter back, what is that worth? I don't know. But there is something about recognizing value from that perspective from what we invest and from what we actually contribute to the people that we're serving that feels very much for me important in considering how I think about that exchange of investment versus compensation and the cyclical nature of that. 
The other thing is I dedicated myself to always working in ways that made the pie bigger. So my entrepreneurs on average who coach and work with me get a 10 to 15x on their investment. I can't promise that there are laws that don't allow us to promise that. But if I look at my results, 10 to 15x, whatever that investment is, which enables me to feel really good about where we are in terms of what we offer. 
KATE NORTHRUP: I used to be a feng shui consultant, and there's not really a going rate for feng shui consultants. Now there is, but it was like before Google was as much of a thing. So in terms of pricing, something that's a little less tangible, I just had to make it up. And just as a practical, like if you're offering sessions or something like that, I would do trial and error. 
So I would go do a session charging a certain amount, and then I would walk away with the check in my hand and feel like did that feel equal to the energy I just expended? And if I didn't, then I charged more to the next person. Which may seem a little bizarre, but that is what I did. I just really checked in with the feeling of walking away, or I would imagine the feeling of walking away from a consult and feel like, OK-- whatever I was charging, I don't remember. --but how how did that feel in my purse walking away essentially? Because, I mean, really money, it just like we made it up. It doesn't exist. It's just, what is it? It's nothing. We just all agreed that it exists. And so we live in this system, and so we're just making it. 
MIKI AGRAWAL: I know. I actually literally talk about that exact thing in Disrupt-Her words. Like, money is a made up energy exchange. So we all agree to. But then also when you take that one step further, everything is a made up construct. 
Literally, like the fact that there are these weird borders on this planet where these weird people in these costumes are like wearing uniforms that we made up and you have to get past them with little pieces of paper called passports that we made up, and we're like yeah, we're going to do that on this made up thing, but with like imaginary line. And then the same thing with time, the same thing with, I mean, literally careers, professional failure. 
Like no other animal on earth talks about failure. We're the only literally human beings talk about failure. Even two badgers were like ah, god, I failed doing that tree climb the other day to catch that nut. 
So it's all made up and we can literally invent any new possibility that we want if we give ourselves permission. And so I think that's what's exciting is that when you actually do get the veil of like, wait, why am I wiping my ass with dry paper? This is fucking weird. And then it's like I don't do that with the rest of my body or anything in your life that's dirty. So I'm just going to like actually wake up to water to clean myself properly. 
And so it's just that. It's like everything in our lives. What can we just take the veil of this sort of pre-conditioning off? I've been reading this amazing book by bell hooks, and it's called The Will to Change, and it's really about just this patriarchal power dynamic structure that we live in. And it's not like about men, bad; women, good. It's just that everyone is wrapped up in this crazy pre-conditioning, including men, and it's wild. So it's like let's just erase it all and just start fresh. 
Yeah. I think, just on a pragmatic level, as a consumer-- I talked a little bit about this last night-- that I always put myself in what I call second position, which is, as the consumer, as the person who's coming to the talk or to buy the product or to whatever. And really kind of looking at the world and the experience from that position, because it will tell you a lot if you do that. 
And if you make it a practice, it's such a-- it will give you a lot of perspective on what's going on so you're not in a bubble. But as a consumer-- and I think that we're going to see a lot of changes with Gen Z around this. I have some predictions around how the monetization of Generation Z is going to happen. But I think the levels in which somebody can participate in what you have to offer I feel are really important, because I like that as a consumer. 
I like to be able to get the Target dress that's designed by whoever who did, like, the cheapo thing. And I like to also buy the more expensive thing occasionally, or whatever. So I think the spectrum of offering, where people can go on your YouTube channel and experience it for free, or they can do a lot of things for free. And the younger generations are going to be demanding that. And then there's a lot of things-- there's other levels of things that people can participate in. 
I think in terms of social entrepreneurialism, it's a must now. It's not, if you are socially forward entrepreneur. You have to be if you want to monetize and continue to be relevant in this time. So then you have to figure out, how are you giving back, and how is your integrity moving through the whole kind of mandala of what you're offering? 
RHA GODDESS: And to not be afraid of the exchange, because we've been in exchange from the beginning of time. There have been so many forms of currency. And so it's interesting. We talk about money being made up, by the way. 
We're talking about money being made up. We've had various forms of currency and exchange. And they've been utilized to revitalize community, to create a kind of sense of abundance and wealth that, not just one person hoards and has, but that we all have a sense of sharing. So it's like, my pot, your water, your spoon, your fork. Like what do we get to create together as community so that everybody eats? 
And I want to make sure that we don't lose sight of that, in this sort of potential aversion to currency. Currency is energy. And currency is meant to move. It's not meant to be stagnant or held or hoarded. It is meant to flow. And it is meant to flow in a way that honors what each of us brings to the equation, recognizing that that's how you get a whole society, is when everybody can contribute and be in their genius and be in their brilliance. And it makes the whole better and the whole pie bigger. 
MIKI AGRAWAL: Just to echo something that you said, it just-- have you guys heard of the term Indian giving? You know the term Indian giving? What does Indian giving mean? 
MIKI AGRAWAL: Right, exactly, give something and take it back. And it's actually such a crazy thing, that that's what we've been led to believe it means. When the quick story is that, the Native Americans, the Indians used to circulate this sort of pipe. And every time a new community would come and visit, a new chief from another tribe would come and visit, they would basically gift the pipe to the other person. And that person would smoke the pipe, and then take it with them. And then it would circulate and circulate and circulate. 
And the idea was that money and energy was meant to circulate. There was no thing. If the thing was left on your mantle, it's worthless. It's dead. And the idea is that everything in our life should be circulating. We shouldn't be hoarding, collecting, and just trying to make-- keep our money in one place. It should just be constantly circulating. When it's not, then there's this energetic weirdness, a death that happens. 
And so the story is that this white man came to the community. And the Indians, as a form of-- to maintain the tradition, offered this white settler the pipe to smoke. And he smoked it, and then took it, and just put on his mantelpiece and just kept it there. And so then one day, an Indian went into the settler's house and saw the pipe there, and asked to smoke it. 
And then took it to continue to circulate it. And then that settler coined this term Indian giving. So we should all refrain from using that term moving forward. But it's so true how it should absolutely be circulated. Everything in life should be circulated. Otherwise, it's just dead. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: OK, so going off a little bit of what Rha was saying, some of us struggle with mixed emotions around money. So on the one hand, we love it. We want more of it. But on the other hand, we have some baggage around it. And Rha and I were talking about this earlier. So I thought that maybe you could start us out by talking about, if you had any money qualms and what you did to overcome it, and what you could recommend for overcoming money qualms. 
RHA GODDESS: Yeah, well, as you all already know, poverty trifecta-- and messages and a lot of cultural agreement in each of those respective communities, so it was it was hard for me. 
MIKI AGRAWAL: What do you mean by poverty trifecta? 
RHA GODDESS: So poor, so artist poor, woman of spirit poor, activist poor, right? [LAUGHS] In terms of what was in the cultural agreement and conditioning, with regards to those aspects of identity. And so for me, I had to recognize all of the different levels of conditioning-- the personal conditioning, the societal conditioning, and the places where I was dealing with my own personal dilemma, like who I believed I was or was not, or worthy or not worthy. 
Two, what I actually felt was right in terms of how I felt about capitalism, how I felt about systemic poverty, how I felt about racism and all of the other things that influenced the ways in which people were able to thrive or not thrive in various societies and communities. And for me, having to actually slow my reality down to actually observe what it was that I was saying to myself, and how what I was saying to myself was producing the reality that I didn't want. Does that makes sense? 
And understanding that there is a correlation, and having to start to actually see, like, oh, if I say to myself, they're not going to pay me, then I shouldn't be shocked when there's no check in the mail. Do you know what I'm saying, you all? And how it really does line up, and what does it mean to be responsible for what I'm speaking into reality, knowing that what I say has so much power? So that was the beginning for me, the beginning. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: Mm-hmm. What about you all-- money qualms, money qualms and how did you get over them? 
For me, it's always been a conversation around self-value and feeling like, well, is it OK? Like is it worth-- am I worth that? And really noticing how often in my own journey and how often that the female entrepreneurs I work with give away their power. So we think, oh, well, the other speaker is better, or my husband, or that other-- whoever. It's always somebody else. 
So for me, it's been like, I literally-- I really believe in the power of ritual, simple ones. And I actually did-- I created a ritual of my own turning pro moment, where I drew a line in the sand on a beach. And I decided from that moment forward when I stepped over that line in the sand, I would be pro. And I was no longer going to give my power away financially. And I was going to own my worth. And that physical act, I'm really about embodiment and doing things with the body to remember that feeling. And I will never forget that feeling. And anytime I want to give it away, I remember my line in the sand. 
GURU JAGAT: It's an interesting-- I was just thinking about, it's a little bit of an interesting experience in my business. And I think maybe some of you will resonate with this, just depending on where you're taking your careers. But I really look at the generation of capital and the generation of any circulation inside the different levels and aspects of the RA MA kind of experience as not belonging to me. Because I'm on a spiritual mission, therefore, there's a level of accountability that I have with the resources, that probably wouldn't be there if I didn't have that kind of supra-accountability to my lineage and to what I see, in terms of being a leader, and really how I feel that everything's transparent now. 
So people can feel. The audience and your clientele and the customer is so much more sophisticated and getting more sophisticated by the moment. So they can actually feel your relationship with inflow and outflow and what that looks like and where your kinks are. Everybody knows. So if you think you're hiding it, you're not. So I'm really aware of that. And of one of my kinks is the other side of things, which is like, I'll take a round for everybody. Let's go! Like I want everybody-- so I was always the one, who, like, let's get one for everyone. 
So it's the kind of other side of growing up in poverty, or the reaction to that of growing up with a single mom, which is like, let's roll. I want to roll. And everybody should roll with me, and I'll pay for it. So I think it's nuanced in that way. And because I have a spiritual lineage, there's been an another level of accountability that I see that the inflow and outflow is really due to my devotion to that. So it's a little-- but I think for some of you, that may be resonant to what you're up to in your mission. 
MIKI AGRAWAL: Hmm. I learned how to budget when I was 11 years old. My dad sat us down and was like, you need to spend less than you earn. That's it. 
That's it, done. It was pretty-- that was like, oh, OK, I just have to live below my means and I can be free. And I think that I learned-- I read a bunch of books about the fact that so many American families are so fraught with credit card debt themselves, parents, that they don't want to talk to their children about finances. Because there's so much shame themselves around it, and so it just perpetuates this crazy cycle. And it's just like, let's just keep up with the Joneses and pretend that we're fine. And then it's just this like weird, competitive thing, that just kind of kills the spirit. 
And so I think my parents were actually like-- my dad was like, oh, frugal is a compliment. And so when you say, yeah, like being frugal, I'm proud of that. I'm proud that I really-- I value the energy that money is. And also, I also value deep self-work. And I think that, so often, we can easily blame. Like, well, I don't have enough this and I don't have enough that, because I'm a woman of-- I have butted up against the fact that I'm-- raising money has been really challenging for me because the products I've been launching are very strange initially. And period underwear, should be hearing about this, ha ha. 
Should I get my wife in the room? And so, I just got a lot of that. And poop spraying everywhere? Should I be-- what? Anyway, it's just a constant barrage of those kinds of things. Like a bidet, what? So I started working with a life leadership coach like about six years ago. And I really faced a lot of my own shit. And I'm just like, oh, well, like blaming a little bit other people as to what is going on with my life. And I was just like, no, no. 
She was like, no sweetheart, you chose everything in your life. You chose every single bad investor or whatever. You made your bed. You chose the bad employee, or you chose that person that you knew is going to-- because of your relationship with your fa-- whatever. And so let's clean all of it up. And then let's reorganize the pieces. Let's figure everything out. And then money will come. 
And like man, when I first started working with her, Thinx was $60,000 in the hole. And within three years of working with her, $50 million in revenue, you know? And so it was just like, such clear-- if I take radical responsibility for every single thing that happened for me in my life and just say, I hold all of the power to paint my own canvas for my life, and make the choices that are much smarter, thoughtful, less fly by the seat of my pants kind of person-- my coach called me a silver lining-aholic. 
I would always look for the good, and really kind of stuff the bad under the rug. And then it would come out in this sort of angry way. It was just sort of not productive. And so she just-- every week for 90 minutes for the last now six years has been just like bitch-slapping me in the face, you're dumb. And I'm like, thank you, I love you. 
I went through a really tough experience, and she's like, what's the name of your book again? I was like, Disrupt Her. She's like, shut up! And I was like, right. 
I need that sometimes. That really helps. 
RHA GODDESS: I just want to underscore, because it's like, if we want to know what's between us and our money, it's what wants to be healed, at the center of our humanity. And I've been waiting forever for that course. And I haven't seen it, so we created it. I just want to say that. We'll talk maybe more about that at some point. But I want to say that it is about us coming into the wholeness of ourselves. That's really what it is. 
And we joked earlier about sex and the great portals. And it was so funny. Because we said it earlier, as well, that the great portals are like sex-- and I said food, too, though-- and money. You know what I mean? Like if you really want to meet yourself, if you want to meet yourself on all of the different planes which you occupy, the shadow and the light, any one of those portals, if you do the real work, any one of those portals will get you there. 
And so I think it's so important to say that, at the center of it is healing. And I say it also, because sometimes we chase the tips and the tools. We chase the one-hit wonder quick, oh, let me go take a financial literacy course. I take nothing away from financial literacy work, because I think it's important. But the truth is, until you heal, you can't hear. 
So no matter what you know you're getting-- you feel what I'm saying-- you can't really receive it until you've gotten good with you, and you at a very, very soul level. And the most exponential growth I've ever experienced in my own reality, and in the reality of the people we serve, has been rooted in healing trauma, has been rooted in healing unworthiness, has been rooted in healing scarcity. We can sort of name what the root causes are that actually prevent healing issues of safety. We can name what they are. You heal those things, and you would be blown away to see the degree to which your reality shifts around money. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: Mm-hmm. So let's talk about capitalism. And some of this deal with this tension between capitalism and the fact that, with a business, you exist within the realm of capitalism. So how have you-- if this has been something that you've been dealing with or thought about, how have you eased that tension for yourself? What do you make of it? 
MIKI AGRAWAL: I think conscious capitalism is the thing that's going to change the world. It's further than nonprofits and government, than anything else, because it's conscious businesses that have some skin in the game, to really both do good and do well. That's what moves society forward. I sit on the board of Conscious Capitalism with the founder of Whole Foods market John Mackey, and Kip Tindell, the founder CEO of The Container Store and Trader Joe's. And these are all conscious from the perspective of how they treat their employees, how they treat the suppliers, how they treat their shareholders, like pretty much everyone, the environment. I always challenge The Container Store a little bit. 
But they're like, we're creating long-term equity for people, in that how they create organization in their lives is really important. But for the most part-- the Grameen Bank president, all these amazing leaders. And what's interesting is that John, who is now the godfather of my son, John Mackey, who's one of the dearest friends of mine, he and I have long conversations about the fact that Whole Foods is a $17 billion business. And they spend easily $250 million a year on health care and on health and wellness things for their employees. 
They do such good work for the world. And because they're a big corporation, people are like, fuck you guys, you're a capitalist, and you're pigs. And he's just like, what the F? Like, I'm just trying to literally help as many people as I can while I'm here for such a short amount of time in my life. And that's why Conscious Capitalism, Inc. was formed. This organization was to really say like, can we scale really amazing, empowered, positive, conscious businesses, even as they get really big, and still have a different perspective of, oh, big business? Maybe that's good for the world, if done right. So I have a really good relationship with capitalism. 
GURU JAGAT: I'm going to go with what Miki said. 
RHA GODDESS: I'll add a piece, but I want to honor. 
GURU JAGAT: Well, I was just going to say that, we travel probably 250 days a year. We travel all around the world. And it's a heavy-duty thing. But I think travel gives you something. The worth of travel gives you perspective that is just so valuable. And I do find the more I travel, the less I consume in ways that I consumed when I didn't travel as much, which I think is interesting. But that's not my point. 
My point is that, of all the faults of capitalism and of all the issues and the adolescence, we'll call it, of the human species on this planet, and the depth of the kind of collective conscious, self-destructive thought form, which, as that has permeated through the collective consciousness, we can't create things that are not destructive for the planet, for our families, for our communities. Because we're either on a constructive kind of thought or energy, or we're on a destructive, because we live in a kind of polarity experience in this particular matrix. 
But something for all of the faults and all of the issues that you see in America and other capitalist countries, when I return to America, I really appreciate the entrepreneurial, bootstrapping, kind of American way, and investing in small business and a lot of the opportunities. I was just speaking on a conference in the UK. And the investment structures are much different there. And it's much more rigid and that kind of thing. And there is something to be said about, as messy as it's been and as destructive as it's been, the same energy of the destructiveness of capitalism can and will be, I believe, used and turned towards the constructive use of capitalism. And I agree with you 100%. 
This is how we're going to change. Because Yogi Bhajan and a lot of that spiritual teachers that came at the end of what we would call the Age of Pisces, which is kind of the latter part of the 20th century, they came to disrupt what people thought a spiritual teacher looked like. So whatever you think about Osho and Wild World Country, he took an incarnation to basically disrupt what it looked like to be a spiritual teacher, same thing with Yogi Bhajan, same thing with his Holiness the Dalai Lama. He very much is disrupting what it looks like to be a spiritual teacher and a Tibetan kind of Buddhist and a political figure. He's an interesting figure in this way. 
And Yogi Bhajan, my teacher, he basically wanted to deeply disrupt the spiritual kind of destructiveness around thinking that, in order to be spiritual, you have to also not have an inclination to be a capitalist or an inclination towards money. And he would do things just to mess with everybody. Like he would spend $100,000 in a day, just so everybody would be like-- because he knew how to make money, he knew how to spend money, so it was no problem to him. 
And a lot of these teachers, that's what they are doing, is basically to show that all of our spiritual chauvinism around what it looks like-- it's chauvinistic, basically, around what it looks like to be spiritual, what it looks like to be a person of God or a person of doing a higher-- some higher calling. It's a certain type of chauvinism. And so I think we're all here to basically deconstruct that and disrupt it and create a new archetype of a very constructive, very productive and resourceful group of leaders that can make big change in politic, in economy, and in every sector of society. 
RHA GODDESS: Here's the thing. We need y'all to have money. 
I want to say, like, y'all are it. Y'all are the transformation. You all are looking at us. I'm looking at y'all, because I'm like, this is where it's at, right out here. And I say that, because the shift for me-- even when I went through my financial education, I had my sort of come to Jesus moment, the shift from me was spiritual. I never got excited about making money, but I got very excited about changing the game. And for me, changing the game of capitalism is about recognizing that you are an economy unto yourself. 
And I want to say that, because I also know a lot of those folks in the conscious capitalism movement and love them and appreciate them. But I think there's something also about us not always looking to the big guy to make the change. We're the revolution. 
And the degree to which we understand the power of how we acquire and spend and utilize our resources-- thinking about your comment about how we'd be stewards of our resources and the commitment to have resources to leverage towards more good is important. My big awakening around capitalism was like, oh, if I don't participate, it's actually going to get worse. So I need to be participating with a certain level of consciousness if I want to see the energy of capitalism shift, if I want to see the energy of a change. 
So then it became, OK, I don't like my dry cleaner-- not a nice person, always yelling at the staff in the back, got an attitude. I'm firing my dry cleaner and I'm going to find a righteous dry cleaner. I'm going to find an organic dry cleaner, you know what I'm saying, somebody who aligns with my values, somebody who smiles, who's happy to see me when I come into his or her store. Do you feel me? 
And I did it with every single place where I spent money. And I went from being angry about spending money to being joyful about spending money. Because I was like, oh, if I go buy Thinx, Miki's my girl. Like, let's do that, you know what I'm saying? And think about what the-- because this is what we came from. 
This is what we came from. Right, Tushy, all of it mama, Wild, all of it. This is what we came from. We came from the community where you knew the butcher. You knew the organic produce, you feel me, the farmer. You knew where you got your vegetables from. And you were supporting those families and those economies. And those are the things that we get the opportunity to come back. 
The same way you get to make your money-- I don't serve people I don't love. I don't serve people I don't believe in. You feel what I mean? And my work is to have that be more and more people every single day, as I heal whatever stands between me and anybody. You hear what I'm saying? So personal economy and your ability to create an economy that is guided by your values, your commitments, what you say matters, how you do your work, how you receive compensation for your work, how you then, in turn, spend the fruits of that labor-- all of it is energy. And all of it gets to be governed and decided by you. And I say that's the real revolution. 
MIKI AGRAWAL: Something that-- I want to underscore what Rha just said. And that is praying with our dollars. And I really see it as a restorative capitalism, where we are all praying with our dollars. And we're talking about money. And in the body, if you're familiar with the chakra system, the second chakra, which is the reproductive area, has to do with money, sex, and power. And were you talking about the ways that we get the-- well, anyway the portals, the way we get-- mm. 
But the money and the sex are a big deal, but they're connected to power. So yes, of course, power can be used in terrible ways. But we all have that power, which is exactly what Rha was talking about firing her dry cleaner. That is our own individual power to change the system as we pray with our dollars and vote with our dollars. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: OK, so I told you that we were going to talk about brass tacks after we got into the more emotional stuff. But we are a little bit shorter on time than expected, because this has been so incredible. So what I'm thinking is, we should just go ahead and open it up to you all. And if you have questions about brass tacks, then ask away. If you have questions about brass tacks-- if you have questions about the technical, like branding, like the technical aspects of business. And a microphone will come to you. So just raise your hand, and Rasheen will bring you the mic. 
AUDIENCE: Thank you. Thank you for your time, everyone, for being here. I don't have a question about brass tacks. But in this lecture-- and I've been to some lectures recently focusing on women-- I know there are some men in the group, but focusing on women knowing their value, in terms of being an entrepreneur, starting a business, and really knowing your value, and then charging something that is reflective of your value, or even if you're doing work in spirituality, being reflective of your value, again. I was wondering if someone on the panel could perhaps speak to if we are really pushing the importance of knowing your value and charging what you think that value reflects, do you think that, in turn, limits the accessibility of, perhaps, spiritual practices in, perhaps, working class folks or underprivileged communities, and how to sort of reconcile wanting, as a woman, offering a spiritual practice and doing work that you think is valuable and important and knowing your value, but also making it accessible to folks that might need it more? 
GURU JAGAT: I just want to say, my opinion on that is technology. Technology, technology, technology, it really allows access. Anybody who has internet, which isn't everyone on the planet, but it is a good amount of people on the planet have some sort of internet access. 
Therefore, if you make content that they can consume, they can experience whatever you're offering. And so I think technology is the great leveler. And it's one of the major kind of things that are happening in this age that I think are going to be-- it's going to continue to create a leveling playing field for people in every way, whether it's somebody who-- I love how Gary Vee talks about, if you're an entrepreneur between the age of 40 and 70, you now can basically do things that never before have been able to be done because of technology. This is the thing. 
So I feel like technology is really a place where you can offer things for free or for very little or donation or whatever, and it doesn't require as much of your face time. So that's just a pragmatic. And also, it makes me feel good to have different levels of participation. I'll reiterate that. I have a foundation. There's a level of complete whatever. 
In all things that we offer, there's scholarship, and there's that kind of-- we have a by donation healing center in an underserved area of Los Angeles, and all that kind of stuff. So there's that level. Then there's just all the free technology content, digital content. And then it goes up from there. And then if somebody comes to a yoga class for a very little amount of money, or some sort of experience like that. But even that may be too much. So then you make things that are of value to people that don't cost them anything. 
KATE NORTHRUP: I do a booty burn thing on YouTube for 10 minutes every day, and it's great. 
GURU JAGAT: My workout, and it's free. 
MIKI AGRAWAL: It's a spiritual practice called booty burn? 
GURU JAGAT: It's a dharma. I do that one, too. 
KATE NORTHRUP: You do? It's so good. You're like, oh! There's so much free. You can literally learn how to code. You can learn every language. You can learn literally every dance modality. You can do anything through YouTube-- build a house. 
RHA GODDESS: I'm mindful of just kind of balancing voices here. But to Guru Jagat's point, definitely range of services, but also, invite them to invest. I'll come back to this exchange piece. Sometimes we sort of go, oh, lower income community, or community that is underprivileged or underserved, however we term it-- and I have lots of conversations about those terms, but indulge me for a minute. There's dignity. 
There's dignity for them in investing in their own transformation. And we get to invite them to not stay in the same place. We get to invite them to participate in the exchange, even if it's $0.25. Y'all hear what I'm saying? Like it's not even about the amount, as much as it is about the dignity that we get to offer, that says, you get to participate in your own transformation, whether you're bringing an apple pie or you're bringing $100. Y'all hear me? 
MIKI AGRAWAL: People save up sometimes for a year to go to-- wherever. 
RHA GODDESS: And I'm saying it. Because sometimes we're in these same communities, and they got the fliest kicks, they got the hottest new iPhone. You know what I mean? And there's a way we get to call each other forth as partners in the stewardship of community. 
AUDIENCE: Thank you so much. This has been very insightful. And I had a question. I see all of you very powerful women, who are incredibly different in so many ways, and yet have so much in common. And I'm wondering, doing spiritual business work, how to avoid the traps of the ego, and the sense of, oh, wow, and now I have money and now I have power, and to be authentic and not kind of lose your way, just because other people are telling you, in order to succeed, you must do this, because that's the only way it works. Thank you. 
KATE NORTHRUP: I will say that, in my work, if I'm not doing my own spiritual work, which is ego-crushing work, I have nothing to offer. So part of the work of moving forward with my business is the spiritual work of the shrinking of the ego. 
MIKI AGRAWAL: You have to have people who are not drinking your Kool-Aid around you, I mean all around you, and people who just-- my director of operations, no matter what I say to her, she's like, no! She is such a guru over me. But you have to have people not-- and that's very, very important, that you make sure that there are a bunch of people around you who are on your team, who are smarter than you, more competent than you, aren't buying your shit. They really are going to provide a certain kind of level of accountability. 
And then, I don't know, I think the word ego is used really badly in the West, personally. Because ego death or being egoless looks like a psychotic episode, and it's not pretty. And it is not something that anyone in this room should be trying to get, because you won't be a functional member of society. Now, there are people who are on certain types of rigorous spiritual paths that are doing some sort of deconstruction of the ego. 
But it's because they have people taking-- they have attendants. They have people taking care of them. They don't have to show up on time. They don't have to deal with money. It's a very different-- for the most part here, you wouldn't be at Harvard or you wouldn't be out at night in Boston. You're a householder. You have kids. You have things to do. You have to show up for things. So the whole ego, the usage of that term in the West I think is really misappropriated and misunderstood. 
The ego is a container. And just like a container, like The Container Store, what you put in it, what you do with it, what you do with it is the question. And so then you just want a bunch people around you who are making sure that you're not kind of getting lost in the thing. And that's, I think-- any successful anyone will say that they have people around them that don't buy it. And they're the best people. 
GURU JAGAT: And you also need ego to drive the thing forward, especially if you're trying to fight society. And if society is this big behemoth thing, and you're trying to disrupt it and move the conversation forward using a product, and everyone's just like, I don't get it. What are you trying to do? And you have to really just be like, I got this. Like no, everyone here needs this pro-- you know? And you're kind of just like, the boreal forest in Canada are dying! 
You're just like, and I'm going to save-- you have to kind of like have that thing where, you can do it. And if you don't think you can do it, and you're like, oh, we're all in this together. Leaders are needed. Like oftentimes-- like I tried doing the whole like, everyone, we're all in the same plane thing. And it just doesn't-- you're giving too much rope. And then there's no leadership and nothing happens and nothing moves. And everyone just complains and just gets mad at each other. There needs to be that person. And call it ego, but ego for the sake of the cause, ego for the sake of moving this thing forward. That's important. 
RHA GODDESS: You can also trust yourself with more. I know that, for me, a long time, I stayed small because I had been indoctrinated to believe that money would corrupt me, resources would corrupt me. And it is important to have those checks and balances. But I will also say to you, at a fundamental level, you can trust yourself more. Like the goodness that you are gets magnified when you have more. Why wouldn't we want to magnify the goodness of who we are? So just know that. 
AUDIENCE: How do you make money or not go in the red as a non-profit? Our mission is to prevent obesity, chronic disease, and malnutrition through the education and advocacy of healthy living and plant-based diet. And we run two programs. We run Real Kids, Real Food in the inner city and public housing for parents and kids. And we run a program called Eat to Thrive. And we have a lot of people who have great needs and are very sick. And I just want to let them in free, because they really deserve it. But we need to charge also in order to survive. 
RHA GODDESS: Yeah, business models-- this sort of even comes back to you, in terms of thinking about your model. So I do a lot of work with not-for-profits around revenue-generating strategies, which I think is critical. Because funding priorities shift every so many years. So you can get multi-year funding from a foundation who will then wake up tomorrow and tell you, they've done 10 years of that, they're now going to turn over here. And there you go. 
And so I think it's vital that you have multiple revenue-generating streams. And so a couple of things-- one is, I come back to this conversation about investment and dignity. Even if they bring you $1, energetically, there's something about you being willing to be in that exchange with them, and them being willing to economically participate in their own transformation that is important. So I'm even going to say to you, even if you sliding scale it, that's number one. 
Number two is to start to look at, who are other partners who are willing to stand with you as sponsors and collaborators? So you'll do grants, of course, as foundation money. But there are our corporate sponsors, corporations who have x amount of resources that they set aside, whether they use those as philanthropic dollars. Whether they use those as marketing dollars, there's an opportunity to partner. You could partner with a Whole Foods, you could partner with a Kroger, because they want to be associated with providing healthy options and alternatives for communities. 
So it's starting to sort of think on how all of those different potential ways that you can create partnership, including with people on the ground, on the front line. And then looking at, oh, how can I partner with business, oh, how can I partner with government, oh, how can I partner with philanthropy, so that you've got multiple revenue-generating strategies moving towards the solution that you want to be a part of. 
MIKI AGRAWAL: A simple fun thing to do-- and by the way, I just love that she's here, because we literally sat next to each other on the train. 
She got here before me. I'm like, I don't understand how that happened? How the heck did that happen? You flew here. I don't even know. But I'm so happy you're here. She literally sat next to me, and now she's here. I just love it. But I was going to say that, if someone comes for free, it's an exchange, right? And so the idea is that, if someone comes to your program for free, then they have to volunteer and sell food. 
If it's a food program, maybe they make-- you do some kind of a healthy food sale. And then they can then just like sell food. In order to come join the organization for free, they have to volunteer and do work. So there's always a level of an exchange, but it's not like-- and they feel good about it, too. It's like she said. You want everyone to feel good about it. If you're just taking, it's never fun. 
And you don't get the results. 
MIKI AGRAWAL: The idea is that, in doing these kinds of-- OK, so it's different tiers. Some people pay. Some people pay a lower amount, if it's subsidized by a Whole Foods or something. And then there's those who get to come for free, but then they have to volunteer and sell food and actually make the organization money in a different way. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: So we have time for about one more. 
AUDIENCE: OK, then I guess we'll be the last question. So I have a question, and my daughter also wanted to say something into the microphone. 
AUDIENCE: OK? Hi, my name is Lumina. I'm just starting my own spiritual business. And I'm really wondering, how do you know how much of yourself-- it feels like I am, in some ways, my brand. And my very personal spirituality is part of my business. And I'm getting a little confused knowing how much of my soul to share, and how much to keep just for me. So I'm asking about that. And then my daughter wanted to say something. 
AUDIENCE: OK, but she's also very happy to be here. 
MIKI AGRAWAL: She's so cute. 
AUDIENCE: She just turned five today. 
KATE NORTHRUP: Happy birthday! 
AUDIENCE: I turned 85 today. 
MIKI AGRAWAL: 85 today-- oh, yeah, by the way, she's 85 today. 
The best. 
KATE NORTHRUP: I do want to speak about being your brand. I am my brand, and that is complex. So there are people who do it one way, like a Glennon Doyle of the world, you know really-- she doesn't share everything, but she shares way more than I ever would. And it's amazing. I freaking love her. But I don't want to tell that much. 
And then for me, I have my boundaries. Like Miki might share a certain amount. I might share a certain amount. And it's really like-- here's what I recommend. Every time you're going to put a blog post or a YouTube video or an Instagram story or whatever it is, teaching a workshop, just whatever your practice is, my practice is going within and just checking in, having a couple breaths, and just asking what's right. And not that I stop and do that every two seconds. You haven't seen me doing that. 
But when you practice that-- you know. You're a spiritual teacher, right? When you practice that, the tether is quite strong. And so you'll still have those moments where you're like, ooh, overshare hangover. But for the most part, you'll be tethered to what's true and right for you. And you've got kids, so there's that. And I've got kids. 
And I thought it was going to be one way with the kids in the business, and it's not the way I thought it was going to be. And I do put pictures of them on social media. I thought I never would, and here I am. But that's not like my main thing. And so it's really just like listening to that voice inside, because you will see models. 
Here's my advice to my whatever, to myself and all, is, please, please, please, do not look at what other people are doing as the way you need to do it. Because if we're going to change the way it is, we have to do it the way that feels right to us. And if you are trying to build a new model, you can't build it based on other people's. You just have to decide for you what feels good. 
GURU JAGAT: I have something I think is really important on this subject, which is, even if you are your brand, in whatever way you are your brand-- because it's true in some ways. It's true all the time. But then it's more true if you have a certain face of a brand or whatever. One of the big issues with any type of business is that, it gets very complicated when you are the face of the brand or you think you are, whatever, you want to be. 
The business itself, even if you are the face of it or it is you, has its own identity. Therefore, you're serving the identity of the business. And it gets complex when it is "you," quote, unquote. But all of it, even Glennon Doyle, it's a narrative that she's creating. People are using the TMI narrative quite a bit, especially in the millennial generation, as a way to kind of-- whether they're conscious of it or not-- as a way to hook people into their story and their narrative. And they may actually think it's true completely. 
But you also will see a lot of those types talking about, I'm so burnt out. I'm so fatigued. It's really wearing on me, the sharing too much type of brand. And the reason it's wearing on them is because they don't understand that the business itself has its own identity and they are serving it. And if you understand that, then you will not get burned out. Because you are serving something that's greater than you, even if it appears to be "you," quote, unquote. It's just like money. I mean, everything is made up. 
And all of our concepts of who we are are not as made up. And it'll change in the narrative. Hopefully you tell a good story, and you're telling a good story that is-- it's not that it's not authentic. But I could tell you 11 different stories from today from different angles and perspectives, that would all have been somewhat true. And it just depends on the perspective of how I want to share that. So you're serving something greater than you. 
And if you really get that, you will not get the classic kind of burnout story, that is another thing people like to share on social media as a way to hook people in. And I think that's a low level of participating in the conversation. I think there's such a much-- I really call you all to a much higher level of narrative and dynamicity, when it comes to how you serve the-- and if you are a multiple offender in entrepreneurialism, each one has its own identity, doesn't it? 
And a complete different-- and demands, and just like any relationship. It's really interesting. Even every studio I open, which has the same name, has its own identity and a completely different set of rigors and mores and ethos. It's very interesting, that part, I think. So yeah, that would be my one thing to say to you. I do feel like we need to take a question from a man, because there's a lot of men. Yeah, I really feel like-- can we do that? Are you guys able to stay in the room here? Yeah, this guy wanted to ask a question. 
AUDIENCE: I was very excited. 
GURU JAGAT: Yeah, I could tell. Chopped liver around here? 
AUDIENCE: Well, they even out at some point, right? But I was curious, for each of you, it's in a different way, whether it's advice or a process or a technique or a product. And especially, something as intimate as spiritual advice, financial, or hygiene, how do you create the conditions of trust to come forth? 
KATE NORTHRUP: How do you create the conditions of trust-- Like for people to trust you, or for you to trust in something greater? Because I could answer that a couple of-- 
AUDIENCE: Trust in you.
AUDIENCE: Trust in your piece or whatever.
KATE NORTHRUP: That's awesome. For me, I tell the truth. And then people trust me. 
MIKI AGRAWAL: I love that. That's great. And I'm so excited to get to know the three of you-- and the four-- just like to really spend more time with you girls. It's really cool. I mean, for me, with products, I know that when we're introducing a product that people haven't seen before and haven't even known what it is and what it does, to get something to shift their behavior to bleed in your underwear, to using a bidet from wiping your butt-- I mean, these are big shifts in what you've been taught for your whole life. And so there really needs to be a level of like-- so the trust thing is really critical. 
And I have a three-pronged actual thesis statement. So this actually was a perfect feeding into the thing, because this is really helpful. Because I learned it, and I was like, oh, wow, it really transferred from each one of my businesses that were all very taboo and very uncomfortable talking about to being something cool to talk about now. So the first thing to create is, obviously, a best in class product. 
The product has to really stand on its own. It has to be something that people want to wear, want to use. People will want to interact with it and it feels like an upgrade to their lives. It has to be a true, true innovation that people actually like and want. It can't just be like, eh, it's good enough. It has to really be something that you would want in your life, for real. So best in class product, and then the second prong is, consider design across every touchpoint of your brand. 
Like really, really, really considering your design, your aesthetic, your choice of font, your spacing, your breathing room, everything plays a role in people trusting you. When you think about like Apple, or you think about even launching new products, like Thinx, or even Tushy, people now trust these brands, because there's a level of aesthetic calmness to it. It just feels artful. It feels really design-considered. And when it does, it does create a level of trust. 
And then the third thing, which I think is as important as a best in class product and considered design across every touchpoint of your brand-- which includes Facebook ads, which includes website, which includes flyers, which includes every-- packaging, which includes the product itself. Everything needs to be considered. Like I fought with my team today about the size of the embossed logo on top of a new product. And I was like, no, if it can't be embossed, it needs to be indented, like stuff like that. It needs to be half the size, because otherwise it looks corny. Like, that shit matters. 
So best in class product, considered design, staying in touch with your brand your brand, and the third is accessible, relatable language. The way you talk can't be too academic, too clinical, too medical, too technical, too high-soundy, where you're like, spiritual, spiritual, spiritual, ah! Or like, high tech, quad tech layers of technology, anti-microbial moisture-wicking, leakproof-- it's like what the f-- I don't even know you're saying right now. Does it work? 
And so same thing with Tushy-- it's like, if it's too technical, if it's too medical device-y, if it's too-- if you're trying to be too-- like word the value propositions in a way that's just too much, and just people are like, I don't get it, like too much, I can't. So it's really accessible. The way we talk about all of our products is the way-- is like we text our best friend. Like how do you text your best guy friend or text your best girlfriend or text your closest family member. You're kind of like a little silly and a little funny and a little emoji-y. 
You're not too like, I wonder what they're going to want to hear from me. I wonder the customer wants to-- and then it just becomes so contrived and so inauthentic and so like, ugh. If you go through our website, even for Tushy now, we just created a new page called Benefits of a Bidet. Just read it. You'll just laugh the whole way through, because it's exactly how we would talk about it to our best friends. 
So really, go to and then just click on Benefits of a Bidet, and actually like-- it's friggin' hilarious. I always think that you can shift culture, you can change behavior, when you have all of those three things met in a really, really thorough way. Yeah, that's my thesis. 
Oh, OK, clapping for myself, I started my own clap. 
GURU JAGAT: I'll just quickly say that trust-- something we're talking about with trust in all the kind of realms of conversation that we have in the RA MA scene, is that, if you create self-trust, in terms-- and I would put it in the terms of, you're showing up for yourself in a certain kind of self-discipleship. So if you create the environment of self-trust-- which sounds simple, but so many of us don't trust ourselves. So there's just the resonance of that distrust of self happening throughout everything that you do. 
And so when you create that kind of self-trust, there's a momentum, because you know that you're going to show up in a certain way. Even if it's ramshackle or everything went wrong, or you didn't get up to meditate, it's the no good, very bad, horrible day, there's still a level of self-trust that you've built and the momentum of that. And that is, in an auric way or in an energetic way, a frequency way, why people will trust you. You build it. You build it. But there's a momentum. 
RHA GODDESS: The only thing I would add is that I listen, a lot. I receive people before I attempt to contribute to them. Because I feel like we really want to be received, more than anything. We want to be seen, heard, felt, acknowledged, understood. So that's my number one commitment and way of building trust. 
GURU JAGAT: Comedy works, too. It does. Yeah, it does. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: So before we close out, I thought we could sing happy birthday to the birthday ladies. What do you guys think? 
Yes. So what's your name? 
AUDIENCE: Shalom. 
MIKI AGRAWAL: Oh, and her. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: I know. And what's your name? 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: Betsy-- so Shalom and Betsy. You guys ready? 1, 2, 3. 
ALL: (SINGING) Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, dear Shalom and Betsy. Happy birthday to you. 
GURU JAGAT: You go. 
MIKI AGRAWAL: I would like to know how to find you guys on Insta, or the best way to find you girls would be probably good. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: Yeah, I'll close out. So this is Kate Northrup. This is her book Do Less, available for-- 
Yep, Do Less, available for preorder, out April 2? 
KATE NORTHRUP: It's available for preorder right now at You can get presents. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: Perfect. And where can we find you? 
KATE NORTHRUP:, or @katenorthrup. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: And this is Rha Goddess. And Rha is offering-- if you want to come down here afterward and get one of these little doodads. And this is-- do you want to tell us about what this? 
RHA GODDESS: So this is a complimentary webinar, all around shifting our relationship to capitalism. So the conversation that we had today, this is a two-hour webinar that I lead that really goes deeper into, how do you identify, and then actually shift everything that stands in the way of you and your money. My gift to you all, truly. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: Rha Goddess.  OK, and this is Guru Jagat. And Guru Jagat is the author of Invincible Living. Be sure to pick up your copy today. Where is it available-- Amazon, everywhere? 
GURU JAGAT: It got lost in the storm. It's buried underneath some stuff. But you can get it on Amazon if you want. It's heavy. You don't want to drag it around. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: Where else can we find you? 
GURU JAGAT: Well, one thing I'd like to invite you all to is a mass meditation that we're doing on Friday, for International Intersectional Women's Day. So if you want to join us for that, that's happening. And there's some information. It's just a livestream on a bunch of different channels. But it will be livestreamed on my digital platform, RA MA TV. So I'd love to meditate with you. And then @gurujagat. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: Yeah. And this is Miki Agrawal, and her book Disrupt Her is available now everywhere books are sold. 
And where can we find you? 
MIKI AGRAWAL: Well, if you want to see a weird video where I'm being birthed out of a vagina, go to Yeah, I mean, I'm always-- if you have any comments, questions, anything, you can just send me a DM on Instagram, just @mikiagrawal. "Agraval," as they say in India. And then just seriously, just go to Tushy, It'll change your life. And thanks everything else. But start with that. 
KASSI UNDERWOOD: All right, thanks, everybody, so much for being here.