Exploring the ‘(Re)Imagination of Matter’ and Charles H. Long
At the time of his death in 2020, Dr. Charles H. Long was called “a preeminent figure in the study of the history of religions, including American and Black Religions.” Long was a past president of the American Academy of Religion, and faculty member at the University of Chicago, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Syracuse University, and the University of California, Santa Barbara. In 1999, he published Significations: Signs, Symbols, and Images in the Interpretation of Religion, a criticism of several major approaches to the study of religion in the United States.
Joi and Raymond Carr joined Harvard Divinity School (HDS) this academic year as visiting professors. Their work at the School includes exploring the story, content, spirit, and influence of Long’s intellectual work through his papers—the Codex Charles H. Long Papers Project. As part of their effort, they have organized a symposium “The (Re)Imagination of Matter: Introducing the Codex Charles H. Long Papers Project,” focusing on Long’s work. It will take place April 14, at 3 pm, in the James Room of Swartz Hall.
In a recent interview with HDS Communications, the Carrs discussed their research, Long’s dedication as a mentor for colleagues and budding scholars, how he wrestled with W.E.B. Du Bois, and their discovery of an unpublished response to James Cone’s Black Theology.
HDS: You both are visiting professors at HDS this academic year. Tell me about yourselves, your research interests, and what attracted you to HDS?
Joi and Raymond Carr: First, let us say that we have had a wonderful semester here at HDS. It has been invigorating and insightful to see behind the veil of what existed in our minds about the mythic dimensions of “Harvard.” We now know and appreciate the real people who continually make magic happen here. This second sight into Harvard has been refreshing and leaves our imaginations filled with possibilities. And while Cambridge, especially during this time of year, does not have the kind of weather we enjoy in Malibu, California, the warm intellectual climate here makes up for the weather.
We also thank Dean David Hempton, who had the foresight to support this project. This is his last year as Dean of HDS, and we hope our efforts honor his service. This symposium is a gesture that witnesses to the insight and leadership of Hempton, who has worked effectively to enlarge the presence of African American studies at HDS. We are also fellows at the HDS Center for the Study of World Religions (CSWR), which falls under the guidance of Charles Stang. He is doing an excellent job and has made the Center a welcoming space for us. The CSWR is wonderful community, and we enjoy the cozy proximity to HDS.
Raymond Carr: I am from a small town called West Petersburg, Virginia. My theological and religious sensibilities emerge ultimately out of that African American working-class community. I am a veteran of the United States Air Force, and I served as an Assistant Professor of Theology and Ethics at Pepperdine University, an appointment which included international visiting assignments in Heidelberg, Germany; Lausanne, Switzerland; and Shanghai, China. My research interests are theologically ecumenical, historically sensitive, and radically inclusive.
In terms of interests, my work bridges the intersection between theology and religion. I am concerned with what is technically called a theologia religionum, a theology of religions. This language can be interpreted as a shorthand way of describing the relationship between “dogmatic” interests of theologians like Karl Barth, Paul Tillich, and James Cone on one hand, and the religious interests of thinkers like Rudolf Otto, Mircea Eliade, and Charles H. Long, and Toni Morrison on the other.
I approach such discussions in a unique way by appealing to the musical aesthetics and thinking of Thelonious Monk, the High Priest of Bebop, to inform my thinking, teaching, and writing about these topics. Monk’s mode of approaching and performing jazz functions as a medium for my way of exploring the relationship between religion and theology. I will have a multivolume work released on the topic by the end of the year. The series is called Theology in the Mode of Monk: An Aesthetics of Barth and Cone on Revelation and Freedom. The first volume is subtitled Epistrophy; the second is Round Midnight; and the third is Misterioso. I refer to these volumes as Monk’s theological discography. I also have two other monographs Signifying Monk and Credo: In Monk Mode under contract and in progress.
Interests akin to my own make HDS’s nonsectarian orientation truly inviting. When one appeals to what Long called “extra church” realities—including blues, jazz, poetry, and other aesthetic practices—you benefit from an intellectual location that respects such creative orientations. We need institutions like HDS in order to be conversant with the various forms of African American cultural expression, and in our experience an open door to a radical form of free inquiry resides here.
To be sure, we would suggest that part of the hidden beauty of Harvard Divinity School is in its strong record of supporting intellectual and religious projects that occur adjacent to the primary academic enterprise in the classroom. Hence, coupled with the innovative range of Long’s academic interests, HDS’s non-sectarian orientation and its ability to support such projects, intellectually and materially, attest to why this is the proper environment for the Codex Charles H. Long Papers Project.
Joi Carr: I am a native Angeleno and thoroughly enjoy all things aesthetic: language, literature, cinema, music, theatre, and art. I have been immersed in the arts in some form since childhood.
At Pepperdine University, I relish in being quite active with students throughout the academic year and have an affinity for student development and curriculum. I am Professor of English and Film Studies and the Blanch E. Seaver Professor of Humanities and Teacher Education. I serve as the Director of Film Studies and Creative/Program Director of the Multicultural Theatre Project (MTP), Seaver College, Pepperdine University.
The Multicultural Theatre Project is one of my passions. The Project is a transdisciplinary, arts-based, critical pedagogy that provides an environment where students explore diversity through a theatrical experience. This high impact practice is the focus of my first book, Encountering Texts: The Multicultural Theatre Project and ‘Minority’ Literature (2015). For MTP, I write, direct, and produce plays and related events for the university. My second publication Boyz N the Hood: Shifting Hollywood Terrain (2018, 2023), is a seminal monograph on filmmaker John Singleton and his history-making film.
My work explores voice and identity in the context of critical studies in film and American literature. I am interested in examining the interlocking aspects of religion, space/place, voice, race, and gender. I am in the process of finishing two forthcoming releases. Voice: African American Women and Vocation explores black female voice and vocation andfeatures interviews by provocative women across a range of industries, from iconic songstress, Chaka Khan, to business pioneer, Kathy Hughes of Radio One and TV One. Second, Movies, Myth, Culture, and Me analyzes the intersection of classical Hollywood cinema, American identity politics, and American national mythos. This text explores the impact of the shared movie-going experience and illustrates that examining one’s individual ideology is a liberating practice.
HDS: Your codex effort focuses on the materials of Charles Long, who at the time of his death in 2020 was called "a preeminent figure in the study of the history of religions, including American and Black religions." Can you tell me a bit about him and his contributions to the field of the study of religion?
Joi and Raymond Carr: Charles Long stood at the forefront of research and teaching in the History of Religions (Religionswissenschaft). He was a founding editor of the journal History of Religions, published by the University of Chicago Press. He established, along with Marshall Hodgson,Nery Rago, and Professor James Redfield, a structure for teaching religion in the college of the University of Chicago.
Long was indeed a pivotal figure, and his intellectual contributions are prodigious and generative. He described his academic career as an intellectual orientation, focused on “hermeneutics as a general theory of cultural formation and interpretation and the application of these methodological meanings to the theoretical studies of religion.” Whereas in this first symposium, we are focusing more on his importance for understanding religion in the formation of the Atlantic world.
Long was promoted to full professor at the University of Chicago in 1971. He taught there as an instructor until 1974. He was also appointed as the William Rand Kenan, Jr. Professor of History of Religions at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and Professor of History of Religions at Duke University. He was a central figure in the history of religions at a time and as we will see below, his activities demonstrate that “preeminent” is a well-earned description of his prominence in the field.
HDS: What sparked your interest in Long?
Raymond Carr: My interest in Long’s hermeneutics emerged out of a student/teacher relationship with the late James A. Noel, a professor of American religion who served as the Eugene Farlough, Jr. Chair of African American Christianity at San Francisco Theological Seminary. Noel was a close student of Long’s religious thinking and wrote the “first sustained discussion and application of Long’s thought” called Black Religion and the Imagination of Matter in the Atlantic World. Noel would often invite Long to the classroom and let him riff on themes through audio, that is, simply by calling him and turning on the speaker phone. This occurred before Zoom became the phenomenon.
A second reason I turned to Long is related to my focus on the Black liberation theology of James H. Cone. Long always sought to make common cause through spirited inquiries in other disciplines; theology in both its proximity to Black folk and Black religious experience was a discipline that he interrogated—without ever identifying as a theologian. Long was adamant here. He was a Historian of Religions, so he was both a dear friend and sharp critic of Cone’s Black Theology.
In sum, Long’s interests in Black religion functioned as a counterpoint to Cone’s emphasis on Black theology. His critique therefore is like a good contrapuntal, providing momentum for Cone, inspiring him to turn more forthrightly to Black religious sources and data, and encouraging him to employ these sources to enhance his Black theology. I knew them both personally and benefitted from their agreements and disagreements. I hold in my hand as we speak a copy of My Soul Looks Back where James Cone writes in an inscription, “To Charles Long, who is my best friend and has done more to influence my thinking than anyone.”
With that noted, it is extremely important to remember and maintain the distinction between Black theology and Black religion. These are two different disciplines. Black theology relies on certain norms and categories, which are mediated to a large extent by Western Christian categories.
Black religion on the other hand has a greater scope, which includes religions outside of Christianity, such as the religions of the African Diaspora, African Traditional Religions, Islam, Black Judaism, and various forms of secularism. These traditions reside outside of what is called the standard narrative of Black Religion. Moreover, because Long defined religion as one’s ultimate orientation to life, religion can be found in a more expressive range that includes music, literature, styles of life, rhythms, and forms of language and other cultural forms of exchange. There is much more to say here, but these broad outlines will have to suffice.
Still, it is also important to remember that Long did not limit himself to Black traditions of religion, and he never felt what he had to say about religion in general or Black folk in particular was privy only to Blacks. As a result, we should place Long not only within the study of Black religion but within the study of religion writ large, including of course the context of religious expressions such as the study of Mesoamerican religions.
Joi Carr: Long’s broader approach to the evidence of Black religion provides a framework for inclusive critical work. My interest started with Dr. James Noel and his critical work. Raymond introduced me to Long’s intellectual work, and I am still grappling with its import. In fact, I hosted Dr. Long in November 2019 at Pepperdine University, Seaver College, in an “Intimate Conversation” sponsored by the Multicultural Theatre Project.
This conversation was his last public appearance and was held before an audience of 400 undergraduate students and guests. This series of conversations included a range of artists and scholars like Dr. Dwight Hopkins, Dr. Willie Jennings, Dr. Davíd Carrasco, Kenny Lattimore, Cedric The Entertainer, Jason George, Amel Larrieux, and Aaron W. Lindsey, among others.
HDS: One of Long's most important works is his book Significations: Signs, Symbols and Images in the Interpretation of Religion. What does that work mean to you? What do you think it offers us today?
Joi and Raymond Carr: In the book Significations, we encounter Long exploring religion in his primary mode of writing, that is, in the form of essays. The book is a collection of articles that expose us to Long’s interventions into the nature and meaning of religion. These interventions strike the tone of what we noted above.
Among other things, he encourages religious thinkers to make common cause with “poets, novelists and creative artists” (Significations, 10). Neil L. Rudenstine Professor of the Study of Latin America Davíd Carrasco, an historian of religions and anthropologist here at Harvard, is quite accurate when he describes Long’s book as an “unsafe book.”
It is unsafe because he disrupts our normal modes of thinking about religion, culture, and materiality. He makes us think about our thinking. In this sense Long’s work can be described as a form of metacognition, which is deconstructive and innovative in its import. We would suggest that if you wish to remain the same, you should not read Charles Long.
Raymond Carr: For me Significations is indispensable. I am a theologian who is located within an academic milieux that has marginalized theological studies in general. Long, by contrast, is helpful because his efforts to explore the nature of religion help me to embrace religion as an experience and expression prior to theological thinking, but not mutually exclusive from theological reflection.
Black people must not abandon their birthright into the academy. Because Long maintains the distinction between theology and religion, he provides a wonderful counterpoint for my theology in much the same way he did for James H. Cone. He reminds me to locate myself somewhere in the dialectic between theology and religion. He helps me to both occupy and embrace this liminal space so that a new form of creativity can emerge. To be sure, this form of in-betweeness explains why the music of Thelonious Monk is so helpful theologically. Monk found music in between the black and white keys. Monk could hear the music around the music.
I would close this response by suggesting to the reader the same advice my teacher Paul S. Chung, a Korean theologian, gave me about Karl Barth. Chung would periodically say “Barth is ahead of us!” I think the same truism applies to Charles H. Long. He is ahead of us. As a result, his efforts to come to terms with what he called “the structures of the Atlantic formation” can help us (re)imagine our relationship to the Atlantic world, the African diaspora, and the American experience.
HDS: Can you explain a bit about the project? What kinds of materials are you looking through? How will they be organized and what do you hope to contribute to the study of religion?
Joi and Raymond Carr: Although we are in the very early stages of categorizing Long’s papers, one way to think of this is to imagine that we are reading correspondence that spans more than 30 years before the Internet emerged and more than 20 years afterward. There are written, oral, and audio-visual forays into all manners of thought. There are proposals for journals at home and abroad, detailed syllabi with extensive footnotes, published and unpublished writings, and edited journals.
We must remember that he not only lectured at scores of universities around the country, but Long was a visiting professor at 11 universities, including Princeton University, the University of Pittsburgh, the University of Tennessee, and Carleton College, Tsukube University in Japan, the University of Queensland in Australia, and the University of Capetown, where he delivered the prestigious A. B. Davie Lecture. Such invitations reveal the extent to which Long’s intellectual contributions were admired by national and international scholarly communities in the discipline of religious studies.
In terms of organization, we are fortunate to have a couple of strong structural models that precede the work we are doing with Codex Charles H. Long, including the Martin Luther King, Jr. Papers Project at Stanford, launched by Clayborne Carson, and the Howard Thurman Papers Project at Boston University, led by Walter Fluker. These endeavors have a mission, core funding from an institution, and a digital platform with archival locations. After this initial stage we expect something similar, although this project will reflect Long’s intellectual sensibilities.
The most important thing to remember is that, just as Martin Luther King was an example of a prophetic figure and Howard Thurman exemplified the mystic, Charles Long represents the hermeneut. Thinking in such categories helps us to understand Long’s stylistics and importance.
HDS: What are some items of interest that you've found so far? Have you found anything unexpected or that surprised you?
Joi and Raymond Carr: What we have discovered so far is that Long was not only a dynamic lecturer, an engaging and brilliant teacher, but he excelled at being a mentor. His advocacy and support of colleagues, former students, and budding scholars is nothing short of astounding. He was indefatigable, working into his 90s. His letters, commentaries, edits of papers sent by colleagues asking for guidance and personal comments are extensive and brilliant, extending into subjects that are not covered in his books. Moreover, there are clarifications and extensions of his thinking about problems in the study of religion.
In my view, Long modeled intellectually the kind of relationship senior scholars should have with the academy and a younger cohort. Indeed, for those who have the will and the energy, we must find ways to involve retired academics who desire to keep giving and sharing their wisdom and insight into their chosen subjects. In addition to racism and other forms of discrimination, ageism is an unfortunate reality in the academy, and the greater “sin” is in our failure to embrace the wisdom of our seniors.
Raymond Carr: The most surprising things I have found include his lectures on Harvard’s own W. E. B. Du Bois. They contain subtle shifts in the titles and nuances that arise in relation to each given occasion. Long perpetually wrestled with Du Bois. His comments on the theology of Karl Barth, the Swiss Protestant theologian, are also illuminating and impressive. Long in fact met both Du Bois and Barth. I discussed Barth’s theology with Long on a number of occasions, and he is the only African American we have on record—at least in terms of the details of the conversation—as criticizing his writings. In 1962, when Barth visited America, others like Martin Luther King met Barth, but Barth mentioned Long in his book called Evangelical Theology, and Long recalls the encounter in Significations.
Perhaps the most surprising folder so far coincides with the longstanding debate between James Cone and Charles Long. In a shed in the backyard of Long’s home, I found a folder called “Outline of a Book on Black Theology.” This outline with a short prospectus for each chapter, if carried through to publication, would have been a substantial response to Cone’s Black Theology. It gives meanings to Cone’s comments that in the debate among Black scholars over Black Theology, “[t]he place to begin is with Charles Long, whose viewpoint is perhaps the most influential, despite his failure to publish a long-awaited book on the subject” (Cone, “Epilogue” in Black Theology: A Documentary History, 615). This folder may be the source of one of the first writing projects we edit to build an intellectual infrastructure around generative insights in Long’s papers.
HDS: You are partnering with the Moses Mesoamerican Research Project and Archive, led by HDS Professor Davíd Carrasco, for this project. How has that partnership furthered this codex effort?
Joi and Raymond Carr: To be frank, I do not think this project would be viable without the contributions of Davíd Carrasco, who studied with Long at Chicago from 1969 to 1974. As Long notes in a paper called “Precis of My Career,” a document which helped me develop these responses, the Mesoamerican Archive was working to collect Long’s papers in the mid-1990s.
Carrasco, Scott Sessions, Reiko Sono, and Long himself were attempting to organize and preserve some of his papers. That effort represents the seedbed for his book Ellipsis: The Collected Writings of Charles H. Long. This early effort evolved into a video collection of eight of Long’s public lectures, entitled “Codex Charles H. Long.” Carrasco and Long, who the former always called “The Teacher,” were at this work a long time.
Following the memorial service, which the two of us organized for Professor Long in North Carolina, Carrasco was present when Alice Long, Dr. Long’s wife, put us in charge of the papers. We have tried to honor the importance of this history by keeping the term codex in the title of the papers project. It is a useful term because it signals that we are not focusing on some type of cult of personality or cult of heroic genius. To the contrary, we are focusing on the story, content, spirit, and influence of his intellectual work as a dynamic site of memory in relation to larger sites of memory within the Atlantic world.
We think Dr. Long would be pleased with this approach. He was always about the work and the creativity Black people could bring to the world, that is, our stylized, blues inflected mode of being in this world.
HDS: You're organizing a symposium taking place April 14 focusing on Long's work and your efforts with his materials. What will be taking place during the symposium? How can people find out more information?
Joi and Raymond Carr: This is an exciting time. The symposium will reflect the richness of the papers themselves. It is called “The (Re)Imagination of Matter: Introducing the Charles H. Long Papers Project.”
We have Ray Charles’ protégé Ellis Hall, who is called the best kept secret in Hollywood, who will sing a rendition of Long’s favorite song and kick off the symposium. There will be a keynote by the dynamic Interim Dean of Wake Forest University School of Divinity, Dr. Corey D. B. Walker, a close student of Long’s intellectual work.
The Emmy award winning actor, Keith David, will be reading Long’s writings at the event. He will read several passages from Long’s writings. These passages are representative of the kinds of materials in the papers: a passage from a personal letter, a passage from a lecture, one from Significations, and a published article. In response to each reading, several scholars who are at the top of their fields will respond to Keith David’s reading. Then we will have a brief closing keynote from Davíd Carrasco about the origins and potentiality of Long’s understanding of religion.
If people want to learn more about the symposium, they can visit the event listing on the HDS website.
—by Michael Naughton