The intention of this lecture and study was to investigate the intricacies and substance of a genre of devotional literature and liturgical practice in Twelver Shī‘īsm, namely the Ziyārat (visitational eulogy) of Imam al-Ḥusayn. In doing so, this talk presented a historical and close philological-thematic study of this ziyāra, a text that is consistently found throughout classical and contemporary Shi‘ī prayer manuals and formative hadith works such as al-Kāfī. The ziyāra has been ascribed by Twelver Shī‘īs to the sixth Imām, Ja‘far al-Ṣādiq (d. 148/765). Unlike most studies dealing with the topic of Shī‘ī devotion, this lecture shall focus on the textual history, Qur’ānic, and mystical-theological themes which imbue this liturgy. The speakers were Vinay Khetia, Academic Director, Shia Research Institute, Toronto Furthermore, the numerous statements of esoteric or gnostic provenance found throughout this text sheds further light upon the development and promulgation of the non-rationalist stream of Shī‘īsm by authorities such as al-Kulaynī, Ibn Qawlawayh, and Ibn Babawayh al-Qummī who place the ontological function of Imāms knowledge and walāya (charismatic persona and authority) at the very centre of any notion of acceptable religiosity. It is the author's contention that this ziyāra text is part and parcel of the broader venture of early esoteric Shī‘īsm thus, a text of this genre would be most appropriately analyzed within this context. This lecture was sponsored by the Jaffer Family Foundation of NY.
This event took place on September 15, 2023.
Transcript:
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SPEAKER 1: Harvard Divinity School.
SPEAKER 2: The Ziyarat of Imam al-Husayn As Liturgical Text in Early Shi'i Hadith and its Role in the Promulgation of Shi'i Piety. September 15, 2023.
PAYAM MOHSENI: Here at the Harvard Divinity School's Project on Shi'ism and Global Affairs. Our event today is the Ziyarat of Imam Husayn as liturgical Text in early Shi'i Hadiths and its Role in the Promulgation of Shi'i Piety. And we are very honored to have with us here Dr. Vinay Khetia, who is the academic director of the Shia Research Institute in Toronto.
Vinay holds a PhD in religious studies from McMaster University where he wrote a dissertation on the history and philosophy of Twelver Shia liturgy. He also obtained his master's in history and philosophy of religion at Concordia University and BA in Near Eastern civilizations and religious studies from the University of Toronto.
And he's studied and written very prolifically in this area of Islam and Hadith literature and prayer and ziyara. And we're very much looking forward to his talk today, which is part of the Life and Legacy of Imam Husayn Research Track here at the Harvard Divinity School.
And this is a particular unique program that looks at all aspects of Imam Husayn's life, including his martyrdom on Ashura. And only recently, it was the commemoration of the 40th day after his martyrdom, which is marked as Arba'in in Karbala, contemporary Iraq.
And it is one of the largest if not the largest human gathering in the world where between-- the numbers vary-- 15 to 30 million people congregate in Karbala coming from across the world to commemorate the 40th day after the martyrdom of Imam Husayn.
So this research track series is sponsored by the Jaffer Family Foundation of New York. And we're very happy for their generous support of this line of research on the life of Imam Husayn here at the Harvard Divinity School. And with that, I'm going to welcome Dr. Vinay here for his talk.
VINAY KHETIA: Greetings everybody, and thank you, Dr. Mohseni, for having me at the Harvard Divinity School. So I will present my paper. I have a few slides. And then I assume we'll open it up to some questions.
The present study aims to demonstrate that this liturgical material, which is ziyarat material, it's a kind of genre of literature which is a devotional eulogy or elegy usually recited at the shrine or at the gravesite of a particular figure.
The word "ziyara" literally just means to visit. "Ziyara" means visit. But for this study, ziyara is a genre of religious texts. It's a genre of religious literature which is particularly emphasized and present in Twelver Shi'ism.
So this material was produced, at least in this study, how I articulate it, was produced in order to facilitate the articulation of a select social religious identity within a broader milieu of Islamicate civilization. In doing so, this philological thematic study attempts to reflect the pivotal role of ziyara in the formation of Shi'i spirituality as a vehicle for the emergence of a distinct liturgical community.
This liturgical community and the specific text attributed to Ja'far al-Sadiq, which is a text that we'll be looking at, is reflective of a strain of early Abbasid Shi'ism which coalesced around the figure of al-Sadiq. This expression of Shi'ism and pro-Alid sentiment vested reverence in the practice of ziyara to al Husayn and the motifs of cosmic suffering with which the text and the worldview of those Shi'is who define themselves in terms of it are imbued.
The sheer number of ziyarat compositions attributed to al-Sadiq is a key indicator that, at a minimum, the inspiration of such material would have some relation to him or would have arisen in the circles contemporary or nearly to him.
There is a particularly emotive narration with multiple chains of transmission in [NON-ENGLISH] in the work of [NON-ENGLISH] in the [NON-ENGLISH] in which al-Sadiq-- and I won't go through all of it here. Some of it is up there on the screen for you.
One of his companions comes to visit him, and he sees the sixth imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, who's the sixth imam for the Twelver Shi'is who believe in 12 imams-- he sees al-Sadiq in a state of prostration [NON-ENGLISH] supplicating to God.
So he's listening to the supplication, and the supplication goes as following. Forgive me, my brothers and the visitors to [NON-ENGLISH]. He doesn't say [NON-ENGLISH] is another word of saying-- another way of saying [NON-ENGLISH].
"There are those who expend their wealth and they voyage [NON-ENGLISH] for the purpose of seeking our pleasure while hoping for what is with you." So basically-- I won't go through-- I'm not going to read all of it. In this supplication, the sixth imam is praying for those who go to visit Imam Husayn.
And he starts describing the feelings of those who go to visit the imam. He says here [NON-ENGLISH] And by visiting Husayn, they're answering our call. They're answering our command. So he says, "Oh God, be pleased with them. Give them heaven. Give them everything that they want. Protect them."
But then he goes on into this text to talk about other things which give us a historical context about the ziyara of Husayn because here he says, and relief from them the evil of every stubborn tyrant or weak one or strong one that wants to or the evil of the demons from among [NON-ENGLISH] the devils or the demons in human form and in jinn that wish to ambush them or attack them or hurt them.
And then he says, "Oh God, give preference to their children and their families and their kinsmen. Protect them because they voyaged towards us." And he goes on to describe, and he says, oh God, have mercy on the faces whose color is changed from walking under the sun as they go towards Husayn.
Have mercy on the cheeks that touch the grave of Husayn. Have mercy on the eyes from which the tears flow out for Husayn [NON-ENGLISH] out of mercy for us. And he goes on and on describing the various-- the physical act of visiting Husayn and the emotions that accompany that visitation.
He says, have mercy on [NON-ENGLISH] Have mercy on the one that screams for us, that scream for Husayn. And the point of this is that there are three central motifs that are underscored here, the first being that ultimately the ziyara of Husayn is ideally performed for the sake of God.
Thus, the connection between the devout Shia and the imams is also due to their desire to seek divine favor. And it is God that shall reward them, according to this tradition in shi'i belief-- particular Shi'i I mean Imam Twelver Shi'ism.
This reward of divine satisfaction or [NON-ENGLISH] is a status described in the Quran as being even greater than paradise itself. This divine satisfaction then manifests itself in the joyous reunion of the 14 infallibles or protected ones with their devout followers at the pond of El Haud.
El Haud has important eschatological significance as delineated in Hadith which describes it as a large cistern at which Muhammad will await his followers . to relieve them of their thirst by granting them access to the water of life that is whiter than milk and sweeter than honey.
It is debated as to whether this pond is located along the bridge that separated heaven and hell or after the entrance into heaven. But those granted access to it are deemed elect and among the saved. In the case of the narration attributed to al-Sadiq which I've just mentioned, the visitors to the Shrine of Husayn are granted this eschatological privilege and to be relieved of their thirst and distress for the sake of their emotive journey and visitation of their imam who died both thirsty and distressed.
In this sense, the visitation of al Husayn's grave for Shi'is takes on a profound eschatological meaning which gives them a degree of righteous redemption from a dystopic world. This most sublime of divine rewards stems from the extraordinary sacrifice which entails the leaving of family behind only to embark on a dangerous journey, wishing to arrive at the imam's grave with a torrent of tears and a broken heart.
Secondly, this act of ziyara, especially as viewed in the early Abbasid context in which al Sadiq and his followers were situated is deemed to be an act of communal defiance towards all those who oppose the imams, hence requiring immense courage to undertake such a journey in light of the dangers involved.
Furthermore, these dangers stem not only from a hostile Abbasid political establishment and their supporters, but also from unseen demons as per the tradition [NON-ENGLISH] devils or demons in human and jinn form.
Thus, these unseen beings share the Earth with human beings and set out to inflict harm, or at least a group of them according to this narration and this belief, set out to inflict harm on the visitors of Husayn's shrine in Karbala.
These motives once again-- these motifs once again emphasize and often encountered theme of an oppressed minority who rely upon divine grace in order to be delivered from the clutches of demonic armies who brim with hatred of the imams and their righteous partisans. The ziyara for al Husayn comes to symbolize a profound act of defiance and protest which would necessarily provoke the ire of their political and theological opponents.
Thirdly, the act of wailing and rubbing the cheeks in the dirt of the grave is not only acceptable but also clearly extolled by the imams as being deserving of God's mercy. It should also be noted here that their hearts are not merely saddened but ideally in a state of [NON-ENGLISH] which is profound, explosive anguish, which is an intense form of mourning, [NON-ENGLISH] akin to utterly unbearable anguish which manifests itself through screaming, or [NON-ENGLISH] as the imam says, as opposed to sober forbearance in the face of tragedy.
Now, usually [NON-ENGLISH] in Shi'i tradition is blameworthy. But again, it would seem that Husayn, as per tradition-- in the imami tradition-- is an exception to this. And as al Sadiq himself is ascribed to have said, the non-believer or [NON-ENGLISH] who cannot find meaning and solace in the midst of trial and [NON-ENGLISH] exhibits [NON-ENGLISH] exhibits this kind of explosive mourning.
But the exception for this is Husayn. Very interesting. So Husayn becomes an exception to this general dislike of explosive anguish and explosive mourning. Such dramatic scenes have been roundly condemned by both moderate and fundamentalist Sunni scholars as a sign of exaggeration which contribute to the sanctification of graves.
And this is perhaps a proverbial fork in the road where Shi'ism and Sunnism go separate ways. Consequently, traditions such as that cited above represent a paradigmatic example of what scholars such as Ibn Taymiyya condemn in his various polemical censures of ziyarah and the "polytheistic practices," quote-unquote, which occur. And for more on that, you can refer to Taylor's work In the Vicinity of the Righteous. It is excellent work. Published some years ago, but it's a very good work.
It should be noted that the act of wailing, screaming, and rubbing one's body against the imam's shrine in Karabala by Shi'i scholars and the laity alike continues unabated today. And the ziyara [NON-ENGLISH], which is a general ziyara of Husayn which I've chosen for study today, is a paradigmatic example of the phenomena that I wish to describe.
Now, ziyara literature itself is very well known. It's very well attested in Shi'i tradition. As you see, there's a list there. There's a sample list of some texts that are non-extant texts that I have traced back to the early period. They're non-extant in the sense they don't exist in manuscript form, but there may be transmissions from them.
And there's evidence in bio-bibliographical sources known as [NON-ENGLISH] sources or [NON-ENGLISH] sources or [NON-ENGLISH] or indices, that there was a very early tradition of ziyara texts-- "ziyara texts" meaning books that contain eulogies and visitation eulogies to be recited.
One of them is [NON-ENGLISH] which we're going to get to in a moment, which is basically a text or a devotion to be recited when one goes to visit one of the 14 infallibles. It's a form of liturgy. But this liturgy is very early. It has an early source, it would seem.
And we see from [INAUDIBLE] and on and on [NON-ENGLISH] companion of [INAUDIBLE] the companions of [INAUDIBLE] the companions of [INAUDIBLE] and on and on. This is just a sample here. This is not to say that this is exhaustive, but it is indicative that it is a profoundly early tradition in imami Shi-ism, originating from 175 all the way up to 300-- not the ziyara itself, but the texts, evidence of the existence of these compilation and these manuals of ziyarat.
In the post-Occultation period then, we would have numerous texts written-- presumably and arguably on the basis of these early texts, these would be from [INAUDIBLE] the writer of [INAUDIBLE] also known as [INAUDIBLE] and on all the way up to [INAUDIBLE] who died in the 20th century.
So we see an arc of history in Shi'ism of the compilation of these kinds of texts. Now coming to the specific ziyara that I've chosen for today-- and this is an example of a manuscript in my possession gifted to me by my late teacher [INAUDIBLE] which is known as [NON-ENGLISH].
This is one of the oldest surviving extant manuscripts that we have of the ziyarat literature. It was previously owned by-- if we make out the writing correctly, some say this is going back to [NON-ENGLISH]. But the text itself is dated somewhere-- it's about a 800-year-old text-- the physical ziyara text. In there, a lot of these various devotions are contained. So that's just an example here.
Now, the ziyara that I've chosen for today is the general ziyara of Husayn ibn Ali. It has been given the title [NON-ENGLISH] meaning General Ziyara. And we seldom find a single ziyara repeatedly transmitted in multiple early sources from the 4th to the 5th centuries, or 10th to 11th century of the Common Era.
Furthermore, I should note that this ziyara for Husayn is only one of two ziyarat mentioned by [INAUDIBLE] and it is also found in the work of [INAUDIBLE]. It is found in Tusi's [NON-ENGLISH]. And it is found in [INAUDIBLE]. So you have a single text found in so many early sources.
This is very important to keep in mind. It gives us an indication of how profoundly important this text is, that it's found in so many early sources, this text. And then Sadiq gives a comment [NON-ENGLISH] gives a comment at the end of the ziyara where he says that this is--
He gives two descriptions of this particular ziyara. He says it is [NON-ENGLISH] it is the most authentic that I have [NON-ENGLISH] And in this is basically a complete expression. So clearly, it tells us that this particular ziyara is very important.
Now getting to the ziyara itself, there is two parts to the ziyara. There's a preamble. I'll get to that in a moment. And then there's the actual text itself. In the preamble to the ziyara, it essentially prepares the pilgrimage-- prepares the pilgrim emotionally to visit Husayn ibn Ali.
And the text opens with [INAUDIBLE] narrating that a group of companions, including himself, Yunus [INAUDIBLE] are sitting in the presence of Ja'far al Sadiq, the sixth imam, when they decided that Yunus [INAUDIBLE] would be the spokesperson among them due to his seniority in age.
This is a group of people with al Sadiq, with the sixth imam. And al Sadiq now replies by giving Yunus [INAUDIBLE] interestingly, Yunus asks rather al Sadiq a question, which is, what do we do when we're in the court of the Abbasids? He says [NON-ENGLISH]
[NON-ENGLISH] here then in the tradition presumably either added by one of the copyists or added by the reporter says [NON-ENGLISH] Then what do we do when we're in the Abbasid court as Shias, as followers of you, we're in the Abbasid court? What do we do? Because we're put into a very uncomfortable situation. It gives us a historical context here.
And then the imam gives him a supplication to read, which is not relevant to us here, and then quickly follows up with another question. Yunus turns to al Sadiq and tells him, I'm always thinking of Husayn. What should I say when I think about him?
This now opens a floodgate because Ja'far al Sadiq now relates to him a very long tradition and ziyara. He says, you begin by saying, three times may the blessings of God be confirmed upon you, oh, [INAUDIBLE] [NON-ENGLISH]
He says, begin by saying three times, oh God, confer your blessings on [INAUDIBLE] is a name for Husayn-- for he says that [NON-ENGLISH] reaches him from far or from close. This is very important. So it means that what Ja'far al Sadiq is about to tell him can be done from far or from close.
It would seem that this question was so moving or of such grave importance that the imam, perhaps feeling comfortable enough in the presence of his inner circle and without being prompted, went on to now say, and when he Husayn died, the seven heavens and the seven earths, and what is in them and what is between them and all those creations of our Lord which inhabit paradise and hellfire, wept over him.
What is visible and invisible wept over [INAUDIBLE] [NON-ENGLISH] As indicated above, the death of al Husayn is seen to have set off a series of supernatural cosmic events. This could refer to several things, both literal and symbolic, which include the skies turning red, raining blood, or other natural disasters or supernatural events.
This statement fits within the broader Quranic and Shi'i iteration of cosmological suffering centered on the person of al Husayn, the third imam and the grandson of the Prophet. One such example would be the saying of Ja'far al Sadiq which states that the sky turned red for a year when al Husayn was killed as with [INAUDIBLE]. Its redness is its sign-- is its weeping-- is a sign of its weeping.
As for the Quran, the most common motif of heavenly tears is rooted in 4429-- "And the heavens and Earth did not weep over them, nor were they given any respite." This allusion to cosmic weeping is balanced and distinguished by the evident belief that the drowning of the army of the pharaoh as oppressors warranted no cosmic reverberation. Hence, the heavens did not cry over the pharaoh when he was drowned.
Tusi comments in his [NON-ENGLISH] of course, Tusi being the scholar, the compiler of [NON-ENGLISH] who lived in the 5th century [NON-ENGLISH] in Baghdad. He was a student of Sharif Murtada, of that whole group of what is known as Buyid Shi'ism really between the 4th and the 5th century, called the Shi'i century in Iraq. So Tusi was, you could say, the last of them, of that group of scholars in Baghdad.
Tusi comments in his [NON-ENGLISH] on this verse by drawing a comparison with al Husayn for whom he says the heavens wept over him as opposed to the pharaoh who was humiliated by God and the heavens did not, from [NON-ENGLISH]. And the people of the heavens and the Earth did not cry over him, unlike Husayn.
Conversely, the murder of al Husayn unleashed a series of catastrophic events in both physical and metaphysical terms. We may situate the motif of cosmic mourning and consequences once again by recalling the heart-rending moment narrated by [INAUDIBLE] in which Umar ibn Sa'd is baffled by the way Husayn is fighting like a lion despite the fact that his children, his family, and his companions have been killed. As the tradition says, [NON-ENGLISH]
In other words, Umar ibn Sa'd is stating that we have taken everything away from him, yet he continues to fight. And eventually, the imam is battle worn. He's weakened. As the massacre nears its ends, Umar ibn Sa'd now approaches Husayn, at which point Zaynab comes out according to the prevalent narrative from [INAUDIBLE] as [INAUDIBLE] transmits it as does [INAUDIBLE].
Zaynab comes out anticipating her brother's final demise, charges out of her tent and exclaims, if only the heaven would collapse onto the Earth. She yells at Umar ibn Sa'd telling him, shall you watch while you allow Husayn to be killed? Will you watch while my brother is killed?
Shortly thereafter, Shimr prompts his men to swarm the body of the imam until [INAUDIBLE] got off his horse, slaughtered al Husayn, and decapitated him. A group of Umayyad soldiers then began to loot his body. [NON-ENGLISH] They begin to loot the body of Husayn, according to the historical narrations, which included his shirt, his sword, his sandals, even his trousers [NON-ENGLISH] And he was left [NON-ENGLISH] And he was left exposed.
These events are portrayed as both heaven- and Earth-shattering. The heaven and the Earth-- it as if it was waiting in anticipation for these moments which have just been described. And Zaynab's cry hoping the heavens would crash to the Earth is poetically befitting to be included here insofar as al Sadiq is attempting to put into words the very scene described by him as [NON-ENGLISH] the moment that Husayn is killed, the moment that his soul leaves his body.
It was at this moment that the cosmos exploded and burst into a state of grief when the ultimate travesty took place. To this effect, al Sadiq tells his companions that not only does the cosmos weep, but also every single person in heaven and hell is compelled to do so.
Now, the literary motif of cosmic suffering and divinely inspired mourning has been attested to in the ancient Epic of Gilgamesh, in which Gilgamesh and his comrade Enkidu slay the Humbaba, the guardian of the Cedar Forest, at which the narrative reads, "Rain in plenty fell on the mountain. In plenty fell on the mountain."
The copious falling of rain is interpreted as the gods weeping for Humbaba, as the story makes clear that Gilgamesh and Enkidu committed an evil act by killing him. Further reference to cosmic and/or divine weeping can be found in the Babylonian Talmud, in Hagigah 5b commenting on Jeremiah 13:17, in which is contained the prophecy of weeping over the captivity of Israel.
The excerpt reads as follows. "But if you will not listen, my soul will weep in secret for your pride. My eyes will weep bitterly and run down with tears because the Lord's flock will be taken captive." In light of the Mesopotamian literary and Judaic precedents for such expressions of cosmic weeping, these sorts of sentiments attributed to al Sadiq are not unique during the early Abbasid period.
Further yet, such motifs are germane to the construction of what [INAUDIBLE] describes as pre-rationalist Shi'i ontology and cosmology. That is, the killing of al Husayn for al Sadiq as attributed to him by sources is not simply a historical incident for Shi'is which occurred within the confines of linear time.
Rather, it transcends time to render even the seeming bliss of heavenly residence-- of heavenly residence-- we'll get there in a bit-- of heavenly residence that even the heavenly residence becomes a site of perpetual weeping.
That is to say the sum contents of everything, of the entire metaphysical realm, enters into a state of perpetual wailing. And this motif of cosmic and heavenly mourning is found in another ziyada attributed through a chain of transmission to al Sadiq, in which he states, "Weighty upon us is the massacre and colossal is the tragedy which befell you and upon all the people of the heavens and the Earth."
[NON-ENGLISH]
Furthermore, the purposeful use of Quranic imagery should not be lost here. You can refer to 1744 in that regard. Thus, in the preamble to [NON-ENGLISH] by al Sadiq using the participles [NON-ENGLISH] that which is in it and that which is in between it, he is emphasizing that God's kingdom and the very substance-- and the very substance of the unseen weep for Husayn.
Hence, the second verse states that all of existence is infused not only with God consciousness, as the Quran says, but it is the people that cannot sense that everything is doing-- is engaging in God's praise. So the Quran alludes to this idea of animals and trees and rocks and everything doing-- the engaging in the [NON-ENGLISH] or the praise of God, but it's people that can't understand that praise.
Drawing this within the ontology that's envisioned by Twelver Shi'ism, it is not then unusual with this ontological perspective, with this understanding of ontology, that heaven and Earth and everything in it would cry for Husayn because the cry for Husayn is symbolic in Shi'ism as the very praise of God because you're crying over the one that is slain in the way of God.
And that's why [INAUDIBLE] describes Husayn [NON-ENGLISH] as [NON-ENGLISH] the one that's killed for God. It doesn't mean death of God, of course. [LAUGHS] Someone who doesn't know Arabic would translate literally, "death of God." [NON-ENGLISH] No. [NON-ENGLISH] meaning the one that's killed for God.
The one that's [NON-ENGLISH] then the [NON-ENGLISH] or the praise of God is connected directly to praising the [NON-ENGLISH] of God. It's not the worship of Husayn, per se. That is, it has to be, I argue, understood within a cosmological and an ontological framework through which Shi'is would use these verses of the Quran and then deploy them in their understanding of cosmological and heavenly mourning and suffering.
According to Tusi even, we see this theme again coming up in a letter sent by the 12th imam to one of his companions in Azerbaijan in [NON-ENGLISH] where he says "Oh God, for the sake of Husayn's promised martyrdom" prior to his coming of age and birth.
As a result, the heaven and whatever is in it and the Earth and whoever is on it wept for him. [NON-ENGLISH] So we have another tradition attributed to the 12th imam in a rescript-- in a letter sent to a representative in Azerbaijan. Tusi narrates this in his [NON-ENGLISH] again indicating this cosmic mourning and cosmic suffering.
Another way that we could look at this kind of language is that it's designed to produce an aesthetic experience that causes the reader to enter into a state of awe, as Lara Harb in her analysis of [NON-ENGLISH] approach to the science of Arabic eloquence posits that the elicitation of wonder is a form of eloquent elucidation or [NON-ENGLISH] which makes something manifest that is otherwise hidden from the reader.
So they're trying to-- so there's another element here, that while there is this cosmological, ontological, whatever, metaphysical speculation, there is also a literary aspect here. There's also a literary aspect. And such motifs of heavenly mourning and suffering in the ziyara can certainly be described as an instance of [NON-ENGLISH] and/or [NON-ENGLISH] which constitutes to intensifying the imaginative religious experience by means of literary devices.
A shi'i theological perspective as gleaned from the ziyara would posit that if creation sings the praise of God, then it can equally mourn al Husayn. That's the illogical. And then, of course, this is literary. So my point is that it can be looked at in different ways.
Then the imam very quickly goes into a discussion-- a little bit of a controversial discussion here. Things get a little bit controversial at this point, or for some it would be controversial, let's say, where [INAUDIBLE] continues to state that while everything weeps for Husayn-- this is all the preamble to the ziyara itself-- there are only three entities that don't.
And those three things did not cry over al Husayn. Yunus asks him, well, what are three things? [NON-ENGLISH] What are these three things? And he says, [NON-ENGLISH] I'm not-- I'm reading from the text verbatim, not adding that. That's from the text itself, of course.
So Basra, Damascus, and the progeny of Uthman upon them be God's curse. Prior to discussing the mention of these three entities or people, a brief introduction to [NON-ENGLISH] is in order here before we get to these three entities here.
[NON-ENGLISH] is a verbal noun which could also be rendered as malediction or a spell which entails the befalling of misfortune upon the accursed or the [NON-ENGLISH] The triliteral root [NON-ENGLISH] has been used as both a verbal noun and a verb and a noun 41 times in these various forms in the Quran, predominantly as an expression of divine condemnation.
There are verses in which people and angels along with God also engage in cursing as a reinforcement of God's curse. One particular example shall suffice here, from Quran 2 159 and 3357. "Indeed, those who conceal that what we have sent down of proofs and guidance after we have made it manifest and clear for the people in the book, they are those whom God curses." [NON-ENGLISH]
They are those whom God curses. And the cursers-- there's a group known as [NON-ENGLISH] in the Quran that also performed this [NON-ENGLISH] "Verily, those who molest God and his messenger are cursed by God in this world and the afterlife, and he has prepared a humiliating punishment for them." And that's another verse 3357.
So for Shi'is, these verses and those like it demonstrate-- and by Shi'is here, I'm qualifying this as [NON-ENGLISH] Twelvers. For Shi'is, these verses and those like it demonstrate the act of praying against someone or praying for the misfortune of others is in, fact, not a disliked act.
However, the question remains as to who qualifies to be subjected to such a curse. In the case of Twelver Shi'ism, all those who are believed to have harassed the family of the Prophet would be treated no differently from the one who has harassed God and His messenger in the sense of taking an antagonistic position against them.
As Etan Kohlberg has aptly pointed out, any opposition to the rights of Ali and his family is a grave sin. And those guilty of this should necessarily be cursed, for the imams cursing itself is not prohibited. And the companions or, for that matter, anyone guilty of opposing the prophet and his family would technically be subject to such a supplication.
As the creed developed in the formative period from the 2nd/8th century of the Common Era-- 2nd [NON-ENGLISH] 8th century Common Era-- onwards, Shi'ism remained a school of thought with multiple streams of theology within which the subject of cursing was fiercely debated.
This debate arose in no small part due to the obvious destabilizing ramifications in demonizing those who are seen as spiritual heroes by others. It should be noted that [NON-ENGLISH] is not necessarily synonymous with foul language, [NON-ENGLISH] or [NON-ENGLISH]
Of the two words, [NON-ENGLISH] has been used in the following Quranic verse-- "Do not insult those who supplicate to other than God." [NON-ENGLISH] And the lexicographers, the scholars of Arabic words and those who work on etymology, don't generally draw a connection between the two.
[NON-ENGLISH] is not necessarily construed as swearing. [NON-ENGLISH] is a supplication. Now, in common parlance or in colloquial, it would be seen to be similar or same concept, perhaps, but not linguistically because [NON-ENGLISH] literally means-- it's a prayer asking God to remove his mercy from someone.
That's what it means. [NON-ENGLISH] is God's-- it's a prayer asking God to remove his mercy from somebody. Now, in colloquial parlance, of course that would be offensive to someone because in those days that's essentially like putting a kind of malediction upon someone.
So thus, those who would be the subject of that would deem it to be blasphemous. So clearly, it becomes a very sensitive issue as the schools of Islam developed and evolved. And [NON-ENGLISH] can also be understood as offensive, again depending on how it's used.
But the fact that the Quran uses it so much-- it's used all over the Quran-- would indicate that, as a word and a concept, it clearly is a part of the linguistic culture of Islam. The only question is, who does it apply to? To whom is it directed at? That's a different question altogether.
So the use of it here is not surprising. It's something that is used in the Quran. "God's curse be on the oppressor." So then who's an oppressor? they would ask. One person's oppressor is another person's hero, isn't it sometimes? That's the way the world works.
And in Shi'ism and the way the history and the past is imagined and constructed by different schools of thought, it would turn out that one person's hero would be the other person's oppressor. So clearly, these would then become very controversial and sensitive issues. But it's replete in the ziarat literature. I don't think it can be erased from the ziarat literature.
Now, why these three people or cities? This is interesting. The people of Basra, what do they have to do to get cursed forever? [LAUGHS] No. I think that-- I mean, the other two are-- Damascus and ala Uthman are pretty straightforward there, with Uthman being-- ala Uthman being the Umayyads. Clearly that's clear. That's obvious. Damascus obvious as being the heart, hotbed of Umayyad power.
But why Basra? This I found very interesting, and there are reasons for why Basra is mentioned here. One would speculate that it is included due to it being conceived of as constituting a bastion of proto Sunnis who did not adopt the Shi'i narrative with regards to succession and the temporal cosmic authority of their imams.
More specifically, it could refer to those Basrans who fought alongside Aisha, the wife of the prophet, against Ali at the Battle of the Camel and remained in a state of disloyalty towards both al Hassan and Husayn. In this regard, Shaykh al-Mufid narrates in his work on the Battle of the Camel, the Battle of Jamel, which is one of the early [NON-ENGLISH] or the early civil wars in Islamic history.
He narrates that, oh, people of Basra, you are-- he narrates a sermon from Ali, who says, "Oh people of Basra, you are the wretched of God's creation. You opposed your imam, for you were the first to violate your pledge of allegiance." [NON-ENGLISH] You were the first to break your pledge of allegiance.
So this might be a reason why they are singled out here, the people of Basra, in that historical context at that time, of course. In an alternative account of the above sermon found in the [NON-ENGLISH] Ali is claimed to have said, "You the people of Basra have been cursed on the tongue of 70 prophets."
In fact, imam al Husayn had also written to the Basrans insisting that he was a rightful successor to the prophet's legacy, and invited them to the path of guidance. Yet none who read it chose to support him in the end. So I think this may give us some reasons as to why the Basrans are included in this curse.
Therefore, it's within the broader geopolitical and historical context that the curse upon the Basrans may be understood in light of what was perceived to be their continuous infidelity towards the cause of the imams, at least from the imamate of Ali to his son imam al Husayn.
It should be noted here that sweeping declarations such as these aim to pour scorn upon the foes of al Husayn or those who were viewed as being responsible for his killing, either by partaking in it or facilitating it, being pleased by it, or even indifferent regarding the matter altogether.
The curse leveled at the Basrans may also be understood within the context of the famous Basran-Kufan rivalry, which was both religious and literary, in which numerous debates regarding the virtues of both cities took place. These debates took place in the presence of both Umayyad and Abbasid officials, in which very often Kufan partisans would claim superiority based on their support for Ali and even the Abbasid caliph as-Saffah.
Therefore, to find such curses upon Basra is not unusual due to the people of the city being consistently cast as anti-Alid by Shi'is during the Umayyad and the Abbasid period. And this is not the only instance of malediction in this text.
There's another lengthy passage where where the 6th imam says, or is attributed to have said, "Curse is a community that killed you and a community that opposed you and a community that opposed your authority and a community that claimed to support you and a community that bore witness but did not affirm their testimony. All praise is due to God who made hellfire their final abode, the worst place of arrival and the worst destination."
So a portion of the scathing supplication may be an indirect polemical reference to the event of [NON-ENGLISH] even, where the prophet's appointed son-in-law and cousin Ali Abi Tabli as his successor. But we don't know exactly. We can only read this and speculate. We don't know exactly what it refers to because nobody is named here. These are general references.
But again, it is indicative of this feeling of betrayal. This is an important point if you want to take away from here. Curses come out of a feeling of profound betrayal. People stand up and say we're with you, then they turn against you to kill you. They stand up and say we're with you, then they turn again to kill you.
And it's on and on. It's this recurring cycle in Shi'ism. There's a recurring cycle of betrayal after betrayal after betrayal, whether it be with the prophet, whether it be with Ali, whether it be with Hassan whether it be with Husayn, and on and on and on.
So that portion of the community here-- [NON-ENGLISH] And the community that bore witness but didn't follow through on it. This whole idea of bearing witness to the family of the prophet. This is a very important concept to understand. The way Shi'is identified with history, through their imams of course, is the idea that so many people claim so many things, yet so few people ever follow up on their pledges of allegiance to the imams.
And Hassan being a case in point. All those letters that came to him saying come to Kufa, come join us, we're with you-- Tabari includes them in his history, describing [NON-ENGLISH] Come, quickly, come quickly. The leaves are turning green waiting for you. [NON-ENGLISH]
These are the kind of expressions you see in the letters that Tabari includes. And then those same people or groups of them are on the other side of the battlefield participating in his murder and the pillaging of his family. So these instances within Shi'i consciousness manifests itself in statements like this. They have to be understood within the broader historical context of history.
And then the Abbasids become no different is in the case of the Abbasids. The Abbasids claim they come into power and they say [NON-ENGLISH] We're coming. We want someone from the family of the prophet, this and that. They're holding the shirt of Husayn. This is for the shirt of Husayn, the bloody shirt of Husayn. We're going against Umayyads. We're finally taking everything over.
And then, boom, just complete bloodbath. Again, it's this whole notion that people can't be trusted. But it's not all dystopian because-- and I'll just conclude on this note. It's not all dystopian because at the end of the ziyara-- and I'm not going to go through it. Maybe we can have a discussion about it later.
The saving grace of all of it is the 12th imam for Shi'is because in the ziyara, like we see in this particular ziyara, like we see in the Ziyarat of Ashura, and others, the saving grace is when at the end of the ziyara where Ja'far al Sadiq says-- so the person's facing Husayn, crying, reciting the salutations.
You can imagine they're in front of his grave. And then they say [NON-ENGLISH] that the spilt blood of every person's unjust spilt blood will be claimed and avenged by you. [NON-ENGLISH] This notion of this return, of this divine return-- one, the return of the imam from Occultation, and then the return of the other imams, the concept of [NON-ENGLISH].
But there's this profound messianic, kerygmatic, and eschatological motif that comes at the end of the ziyara to save grace here, saying, don't worry. All this has happened. All this betrayal has happened. All this blood has been spilt. But don't worry because every ounce of that blood, every drop of that blood, will be avenged. [NON-ENGLISH]
That by you, whatever humiliation has been put upon us shall be removed. And this is very critical at the end of the ziyara because it leaves the pilgrim with the sense of satisfaction now, that OK, I've spilled my heart out, I'm sad, really upset with everything that's happened, but it's going to have a happy ending. Just not sure when.
And that's why messianism and this kind of eschatological association with messianism is a very important part of ziyara. Otherwise, the ziyara becomes quite dystopian. So I just wanted to conclude on that. In conclusion, ziyara literature is extremely important part of Twelver Shi'ism.
It is extremely early. It goes back. It's profoundly early and ancient, going back at least to the historical period of the imams. There are hundreds of ziyara texts like this. I've chosen this one particularly because it is so well narrated and attested to, found in so many early texts.
Which I think is also an important element to demonstrate that, yes, there are different streams of imami Shi'ism, even within imami Shi'ism different streams of understanding, but this particular text is so widely found that it would seem that it would cross from what Amir-Moezzi describes as pre-rational and rational or whatever we want to call-- whatever we want to describe these different eras of Shi'i theology. So that concludes my talk. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
PAYAM MOHSENI: So we have questions on chat for those in our Zoom audience. Please write your questions in chat. We'd be happy to choose and ask them to our guests here. Allow me to maybe begin with the first question, Vinay, and then we'll open up to the audience here as well for any questions that people may have.
So it was very interesting and very useful to think of ziyara-- when we usually think of ziyara or the manuals for undertaking pilgrimage, it's just under the category of ritual. And it seems like you're saying it's much broader than that. We should think about how it informs theology, philosophy, the worldview, the cosmology.
Maybe you can speak a bit, a few more words about the implications of that. How in academia should we then approach ziyara or other forms of what are seemingly ritualistic aspects of I guess any religion, but here Shi'ism specifically? How should we approach it academically?
How can we study, look at the influence, the impact in the development of theology, philosophy, in these sorts of manuals? And then a second question to that would be an epistemological question on what the knowledge and science can be understood as. And how would this inform or can this inform us of [NON-ENGLISH] on the knowledge of the imam.
How can this be used as an-- can reading the ziyara give us [NON-ENGLISH] of the imam or knowledge of the imam? If not, why not? If so, how so?
VINAY KHETIA: Sure. Very intelligent questions. Both would require a book written about it. The first answer is-- or the first question-- the first answer to your question about ziyara is ritual versus ziyara as an expression of theology-- it has always been an expression of theology. I think it's just the ignorance of those who don't know about it.
It has always been an expression of theology from the very beginning. It is found in theological texts. It's found in Hadith texts. It's a genre of Hadith. It's classified as a genre of Hadith. So because it's classified as a genre of Hadith or [NON-ENGLISH] or the saying of the imams, it's deemed to be a form of sacred literature.
If it's deemed to be a form of sacred literature for Shi'is, then it has information [NON-ENGLISH] There is information in it to be gained. That information can be of so many different types, but it is certainly part and parcel of shaping a world view. Anything that comes from the imam as a statement believed to be [NON-ENGLISH] or transmitted from him in the case of ziyara can shape the world view.
Now in this case, it is so important because it becomes a nexus between ritual and belief. And I describe this in my forthcoming monograph as a form of devotional theology. It's a Christian term, but I really think it is useful in this case, that ziyara and [NON-ENGLISH] I would say, that these manuals are forms of devotional theology, or liturgical theology we could say, or performative theology.
It's where the performance meets theory, theory meets performance, that it's an acting out of a script. But that script itself is a theological script in and of itself. And naturally, that would then give us a treasure trove of information regarding [NON-ENGLISH] of what is the imam thinking, what is he saying.
In fact, it may even give us more than we would get regularly because it is in the ziyarat that they're uncensored-- generally as uncensored as possible, shall we say. I won't say completely uncensored because it's clearly [NON-ENGLISH] without clarity sometimes. There's allusions to things without naming things very, very particularly.
But because it is something that is so heavenly rewarding, both the script and the performance, it gives us a window into how Shi'is understood there imam without a veil, so to speak, between them and the imam. So I think it gives us a unique entrance into understanding the imams' worldviews and ideas on things.
PAYAM MOHSENI: Great. Thank you. Any questions from the audience?
VINAY KHETIA: Can I just say standing?
PAYAM MOHSENI: Yeah. Any questions from the audience?
AUDIENCE: Thank you, Dr. Vinay, for the excellent talk. I thought it was very rich and really covered a large expanse of topics. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the origins of ziyara literature. A lot of the early texts that you showed use the term [NON-ENGLISH] It comes from the same root.
But it's also used in terms of both pilgrimage-- so the word has a multivalent meaning-- but also for the ritual-- the corpus of texts. Could you talk a little bit more about the origins? And is this a unique Shi'i contribution to Islamic civilization literature?
We know that, of course, many other Muslims, Sufis in particular, might go on-- Sunni Sufis, for example, might go on different types of pilgrimage. But it seems to be more localized, and the extent and scale seems to be very unique within Shi'ism. So maybe you could talk-- were there other genres that you would say ziyara drew a lot from?
Obviously, it's taken from the Quran, the Hadith. But are there specific literary genres that you would say, in the origins at least, played an influence or if you could just talk more about that?
VINAY KHETIA: Well, in terms of literary genres, I would say it certainly draws from the genres of [NON-ENGLISH] and [NON-ENGLISH] and [NON-ENGLISH] which are all these literary devices which inspire imagination, thought, because they're also poetic, really.
They rhyme. They often have prose, especially the supplication literature. I would put supplication and ziyara together in that sense. The devotional literature in general is as much poetic as it is theological. So they are works-- I would say masterful works of Arabic language, first of all.
The choice of verbs, of adverbs, of nouns-- it's a site of just linguistic study. I remember Professor Lawson telling me some years ago when I was working on this under him for my dissertation-- incredible scholar, Dr. Lawson. Just an absolutely incredible scholar.
And him reminding me about this and saying, hey, wait a second, Vinay. Take a step back here and treat it as a form of literature as well. So it's a genre of literature, of Arabic literature, I would say, some of it we would say of a very high rank, certainly. It's very [NON-ENGLISH]
Now, in terms of other Muslims performing ziyara, yes we have evidence of [NON-ENGLISH] of the Seljuk rulers visiting Husayn ibn Ali and so on and so forth, visiting al-Rida-- Imam Rida, the eighth imam. But not scripted like this, no. This I would say is unique to Shi'ism.
Why is it unique to Shi'ism? Well again, because of the devotion towards the family of the prophet. As Amir-Moezzi, I think, says very well, Shi'ism and Sunnism when it comes to this is oil and water. Just they're in different worlds, one Mars, one Venus. There is no unity on this issue here.
Sunnis, of course, revere the family of the prophet, would visit them, but not like this, not with the crying and putting the cheeks on and all of that. This is-- not to this extent in a scripted way. Sunnis would perform these things. They would cry. They would mourn for imam [INAUDIBLE].
But not in the sense of having these scripted liturgies. There are some. There are [NON-ENGLISH] that the Sunnis have, especially during the Mamluk period we see [NON-ENGLISH] literature. But when you look within that [NON-ENGLISH] literature, they don't have scripts. It's not like the [NON-ENGLISH] from the prophet, for example.
So it's not treated as a form of sacred literature. This is my point. So whatever activities are performed there-- so even-- not to say that a Sunni can't cry. Sunnis come to Karbala. Like I said, the history is full. These individuals don't belong only to Shi'is. They're universal figures of love.
But the way that love is expressed, the script through which that love is expressed, is different between Sunnism and Shi'ism. That's what I meant by oil and water in this sense, in the sense that the degree to which Shi'is emphasize on this concept, that heaven is rewarded, 1,000 haj, 1,000 umrah, these kinds of things for visiting Husayn ibn Ali, these kinds of traditions or [NON-ENGLISH] would not be considered to be at the very least mainstream in Sunni Islam.
Or if anything, they would be considered to be going a little too far perhaps. But that doesn't mean that there isn't devotion to the [NON-ENGLISH]. There absolutely is devotion, but not in this way, not with these kinds of scripts written. And I think that's a key difference.
And that's also why ziyara becomes very much an identity marker for Shi'ism. The ziyara literature itself becomes very much an identity marker for Shi'ism, and Twelver Shi'is in particular. And you see this preoccupation with compiling ziyara texts. As I mentioned at the beginning, the scholars of Twelver Shi'ism, the [NON-ENGLISH] all of them participating in this practice from [INAUDIBLE] to [INAUDIBLE].
That's like several centuries of people with very different persuasions, very different ideas, very different methodologies in jurisprudence and theology perhaps, certainly, but having an equal or similar love and preoccupation with this kind of literature. We just don't see that on the same scale in Sunnism. It's nowhere near, not even comparative I think, not on that scale in terms of the sheer volume of the [NON-ENGLISH] literature itself, I think.
AUDIENCE: Dr. Vinay, thank you so much for the talk as well. If I could ask-- I was also very intrigued by the mention of Basra and just the idea of the historical context informing specific things and which things were being named or enumerated.
So I guess one question I have is-- in the popular Shi'i tradition, I think more of Kufa as being put in that position of-- talking about the people of Kufa in the vein of hypocrisy or turning their backs on the imam. So is it, by the time of the sixth imam, the reputation had shifted where, like you were saying, Kufa is viewed as more Pro-alid? And did Basra have this continuous reputation?
And then also, I guess more broadly, are there maybe-- maybe in later ziyarata the Banu Abbas mentioned, are there differences that you see in that vein of the historical context changing?
VINAY KHETIA: Yeah. I would say, of course, by the time of the sixth imam, Kufa is a very Shi'i city, a very important place of Shi'ism. So I think cursing that city would not be a good idea certainly at the time of the sixth imam. The imam's main companions are there. The narration of traditions are coming from Kufa.
And so I think that's one way of explaining it. And what was the other one about Banu Abbas you said?
AUDIENCE: I was just wondering if you noticed other places being named. Or I guess this is-- you were mentioning the Banu Umayya were referenced. So later on, are there other figures or other opponents of [NON-ENGLISH] that are added on as well?
VINAY KHETIA: In other ziyarat, yes there are. Yeah, certainly there's so many different names that are put-- [NON-ENGLISH] and all of these other things are mentioned, for example in the Ziyarat of Ashura. But this is unique in terms of having particular cities and people mentioned in this way.
I would have to go and look through all the literature again. But from what I remember in terms of ziyara itself, the ziyara genre and literature itself, this is one of the only places where I've seen Basra being mentioned in this way. Ala Uthman is understandable, of course. That's quite common.
AUDIENCE: Something really quickly is I was reading a source from [NON-ENGLISH] so Abbasid era, like 9th century. And I think it might have been relevant somewhat to the narration that you brought in. He brought in a narration saying that [NON-ENGLISH] so saying that Kufa is fully Alid or Shi'i.
Basra at that time-- so he's writing early 800's, probably something around that time in the early Abbasid era, Basra being here interestingly identifying it as Uthmanid whereas in the narration you brought it brought Uthman and Damascus or [INAUDIBLE]. But here in [NON-ENGLISH] and it's cited in [NON-ENGLISH] saying that instead rearranging where the loyalties lie.
So Uthman, Basra. Umayyad, Damascus. Shia, Iraq. And then Sunni, Hejaz, basically. So I don't know if that-- I think it's just interesting just to think about how those terms can also move around. So contextual ideas of which cities are affiliated with which faction and political theological loyalty.
AUDIENCE: Thank you, first of all. I have a two-part question. Based on the saying by Imam Sadiq where he says that only three things don't cry over Imam Husayn and the fact that there are both Muslims and non-Muslims today that don't cry over him, is the implication that these people are the progeny of Uthman or at least akin to them?
And therefore, does simply the act of not crying over him, even if they're sympathetic towards him and his suffering, make them undeserving of God's mercy?
VINAY KHETIA: I think this is, again, a kind of literary motif here. I think we have to understand this as a literary motif, not to be taken literally. So for example, in other ziyarat, all of the descendants of the Umayyads are cursed. [NON-ENGLISH] These generally refer to places where, as Muhammad just mentioned, were hotbeds of anti-Alid tendencies and movements.
And it's always, as far as I understand, been understood in that context, not in the sense of every single person that is in Damascus and will ever be there, or every single person that is in Basra-- the Arabic language uses this kind of, as I said, [NON-ENGLISH] this hyperbole.
Hyperbole not to mean that the imam is using it in some kind of extreme way, but hyperbole is a part of language to express emotions, to express sadness. It's not necessarily meant, at least as far as the scholars have understood this-- and I've read at least 10 commentaries or maybe 7 commentaries on this particular ziyara across the board, and nobody says that every single person from there is cursed or every single person doesn't cry for Husayn.
What I do discuss in the book, though-- because I didn't have time to present everything here-- in the book is this refers more to the sense of being denied the privilege and the opportunity to cry for Husayn because of the stance that they took. So they will forever be in that state of not being blessed by God with the mercy of crying for Husayn.
It's again a part of the denial-- that the crying for Husayn is a sign of mercy, as the imam said. [NON-ENGLISH] So they're denied of that mercy because of the position they took to stand with injustice against justice. It's the implications of it.
So thus, even the imam says that even the people of hell cry for Husayn, except these three people, meaning they're forced, they're compelled to cry, not that they're crying out of their own will, that God forces them to cry for Husayn. But there are some people that are so bad, that are so beyond the pale, that it would seem that they even fall out of that category, although they would probably end up in hell at some point.
But while they're in this world, their hearts would be denied that. It could be interpreted in so many different ways. We don't know. Again, these are very cryptic passages that are just-- which give lots to write about and speculate about. Yes, Nicholas.
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]
VINAY KHETIA: Yeah, sure.
AUDIENCE: Thanks so much for a really fascinating talk. You hit on a point which I think is really important of reading the Arabic, and especially the background to this because it just seems really strange if the prophet is [NON-ENGLISH] if the prophet is declared by the Quran to be a mercy for all the worlds, why then would the imam ask for people to be cursed?
But one of the ways of reading the Arabic is the way you just translated it to. It's simply a statement of fact. Not that the imam wants-- there's two ways of reading it, and it could be interpreted either way. But a call for some people to be punished is one way of reading it.
The other one is just saying, this is what it looks like to be excluded from God's mercy. You no longer have the blessing of being able to understand what it means to weep for Husayn or something like that. So I think both of them are on the table. And really, I just wanted to draw attention to what you just said, that that's another way of reading it, which seems also cogent, which might make it easier to address some of these issues as well.
VINAY KHETIA: Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Appreciate it. Questions?
PAYAM MOHSENI: Thank you so much, Vinay--
VINAY KHETIA: Thank you.
PAYAM MOHSENI: --for an excellent talk and an excellent conversation. Let's all applaud for Vinay's talk.
VINAY KHETIA: Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
PAYAM MOHSENI: [INAUDIBLE]
VINAY KHETIA: Yes. Thank you so much, Dr. Mohseni.
PAYAM MOHSENI: Thank you so much.
VINAY KHETIA: Thank you.
PAYAM MOHSENI: Thank you, everyone.
SPEAKER 3: Sponsor, the Project on Shi'ism and Global Affairs at Harvard Divinity School.
SPEAKER 4: Copyright 2023, the President and Fellows of Harvard College.